VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION

On May 4, 8:15 am, Vince wrote:
Derek Lyons wrote:
Vince wrote:

Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 3, 4:12 pm, Paul Elliot wrote:
Vince wrote:
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/paul1cart/albums/
Vince is a lawyer, he thinks that if he says the same wrong thing over
and over that will eventually make it true or the listeners will be
asleep. The Air Force Cross given Major Anderson must have been a real
goof by the Air Force and Kennedy.

http://cworld.clemson.edu/Fall2000/12thday.htm

There is nothing that prevents the president from giving a medal to an
air force officer flying for the CIA

You do know that the USAF operated U2's as well?

yes of course
but later

Operational history

Though both the Air Force and the Navy would eventually fly the U-2, it
was originally a CIA operation. Due to the political implications of a
military aircraft invading a country's airspace, only CIA U-2s conducted
overflights. The pilots had to resign their military commissions before
joining the CIA as civilians, a process they referred to as "sheep
dipping".[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_U-2



He was unquestionably engaged in an activity that was a violation of
international law. He could not have been "ordered" on the mission.

Um... Wrong.

It's an "unlawful order"

There is a difference between peacetime and wartime. The U-2
overflights violated international and domestic law. One of the reasons
we have the CIA is to have a system for dealing with the need to engage
in deliberate violations of international law.

Vince

In the military there is a concept which we have seen rather
extensively in the past four years, it is called volunteering.

October 14: A U-2 flies over western Cuba, the first Strategic Air
Command (SAC) mission since authority for U-2 surveillance flights was
transferred from the CIA to the Air Force on October 12.
http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~hbf/missile.htm

and

As more U-2 missions, combined with HUMINT from inside Cuba, began to
build a case for the possible installation of nuclear missiles,
President Kennedy authorized an increase of U-2 missions over the
island. This increase in aerial reconnaissance coverage was caveated
with the limit that all future U-2 flights were to be conducted with
USAF personnel and U-2's from the Strategic Air Command. (124)
President Kennedy ordered the change from CIA to USAF missions in case
there were any shootdowns or losses. His reasoning was that USAF
pilots could be protected and treated as Prisoners of War versus CIA
pilots who would be considered spies. (125) In the meantime, the JCS
enlisted the support of additional aerial reconnaissance assets. Air
Force RB-47's were brought in to fly ELINT missions around the
periphery of the island along with USN F3D ELINT and EC-121 SIGINT
aircraft. (126)

124) In 1956, SAC rejected Kelly Johnson's U-2 design with General
LeMay quoted as saying he didn't need a glider with no guns or wheels
and if he needed aerial reconnaissance he'd use one of his B-36's. By
the time the U-2 program was approved and placed under SAC, he
understood the importance of having the aircraft because the CIA's
intelligence collection affected his bomber procurement. By 1960, SAC
had its own fleet of 24 U-2's and was using them for peripheral SIGINT
and PHOTINT missions.
(125) Jackson, 116.
(126) Lashmar, 191.

http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/77ColdWarS....02byndu-2.htm

I will keep this up until you stop making inaccurate statements

On May 4, 8:15 am, Vince wrote:
Derek Lyons wrote:
Vince wrote:

Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 3, 4:12 pm, Paul Elliot wrote:
Vince wrote:
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/paul1cart/albums/
Vince is a lawyer, he thinks that if he says the same wrong thing over
and over that will eventually make it true or the listeners will be
asleep. The Air Force Cross given Major Anderson must have been a real
goof by the Air Force and Kennedy.

http://cworld.clemson.edu/Fall2000/12thday.htm

There is nothing that prevents the president from giving a medal to an
air force officer flying for the CIA

You do know that the USAF operated U2's as well?

yes of course
but later

Operational history

Though both the Air Force and the Navy would eventually fly the U-2, it
was originally a CIA operation. Due to the political implications of a
military aircraft invading a country's airspace, only CIA U-2s conducted
overflights. The pilots had to resign their military commissions before
joining the CIA as civilians, a process they referred to as "sheep
dipping".[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_U-2



He was unquestionably engaged in an activity that was a violation of
international law. He could not have been "ordered" on the mission.

Um... Wrong.

It's an "unlawful order"

There is a difference between peacetime and wartime. The U-2
overflights violated international and domestic law. One of the reasons
we have the CIA is to have a system for dealing with the need to engage
in deliberate violations of international law.

Vince

I presume all of the people on these flights were dressed as Maytag
repairmen?

Cold war shoot downs: Part one
Air Classics, Apr 2001 by Larson, George A


DETAILING AMERICAN AIRCRAFT LOSSES IN THE DEADLY GAME Of GATHERING
INTELLIGENCE OVER THE SOVIET UNION

The Cold War between the United States and the former Soviet Union can
be traced to a diplomatic and arms race which started with a speech on
12 March 1947, in the United States. In this speech, before a Joint
Session of the United States Congress, President Harry S Tman
requested a one-time funding appropriation of $400,000,000 which
Congress approved. The funds requested were to provide military
assistance to a beleaguered Greek government to counter a Communist
insurgency in that country.

The term Cold War refers to an intense period of diplomatic and
military hostility, often through client states, blowing up during the
Cuban Missile Crisis which was a near nuclear confrontation between
the United States and the Soviet Union. This confrontation did not end
until the 1990s, with the tearing down of the Berlin Wall in Germany,
and the break up of what President Ronald Reagan referred to as the
"Evil Empire." During this Cold War, United States military aircraft
flew thousands of covert reconnaissance intelligence flights. These
intelligence collection flights gathered electronic signals and
photographic intelligence to verify and identify strategic targets in
the event of a nuclear war between the two Super Powers, and provide
the Strategic Air Command's (SAC) bombers penetration routes into the
Soviet Union.

These missions were classified top secret and considered high risk
military operations because of deliberate violations of Soviet air
space. When and where possible, the Soviet Air Force sent up fighters
to shadow US intelligence flights and to harass, intimidate, and shoot
down these aircraft. Some of these aircraft crew members were captured
by Soviet military forces, survived, and returned to US authorities.
There have been, over a period of years, supposedly live sightings of
American airmen at various confinement camps.
more

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...04/ai_n8949287

Daryl Hunt wrote:
"Vince" wrote in message
...
TMOliver wrote:
"Vince" wrote ...

Spies get shot at all the time
Doesn't make it a "battlefield"
they were CIA flights

I guess they forgot to tell you that those VFP-62 pilots were in Navy
flight
suits flying USNavy a/c - big bright stars and all - out of NAS Key
West,
JAX or off CVA decks.

TMO


the U-2 flights were cia

No, Vince, they were Air Force. Although the data collected is "share" with
the CIA and other branches of the Government.



Operational history

Though both the Air Force and the Navy would eventually fly the U-2, it
was originally a CIA operation. Due to the political implications of a
military aircraft invading a country's airspace, only CIA U-2s conducted
overflights. The pilots had to resign their military commissions before
joining the CIA as civilians, a process they referred to as "sheep
dipping".[1]


overflights were always CIA operations

https://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/vol4...hoto_Gap_2.htm


there were ongoing "turf battles" over the COMOR and idealist programs

Vince

On May 4, 8:31 am, Vince wrote:
Daryl Hunt wrote:
"Vince" wrote in message
...
TMOliver wrote:
"Vince" wrote ...

Spies get shot at all the time
Doesn't make it a "battlefield"
they were CIA flights

I guess they forgot to tell you that those VFP-62 pilots were in Navy
flight
suits flying USNavy a/c - big bright stars and all - out of NAS Key
West,
JAX or off CVA decks.

TMO

the U-2 flights were cia

No, Vince, they were Air Force. Although the data collected is "share" with
the CIA and other branches of the Government.

Operational history

Though both the Air Force and the Navy would eventually fly the U-2, it
was originally a CIA operation. Due to the political implications of a
military aircraft invading a country's airspace, only CIA U-2s conducted
overflights. The pilots had to resign their military commissions before
joining the CIA as civilians, a process they referred to as "sheep
dipping".[1]

overflights were always CIA operations

https://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/vol4...hoto_Gap_2.htm

there were ongoing "turf battles" over the COMOR and idealist programs

Vince

In the military there is a concept which we have seen rather
extensively in the past four years, it is called volunteering.

October 14: A U-2 flies over western Cuba, the first Strategic Air
Command (SAC) mission since authority for U-2 surveillance flights was
transferred from the CIA to the Air Force on October 12.
http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~hbf/missile.htm

and

As more U-2 missions, combined with HUMINT from inside Cuba, began to
build a case for the possible installation of nuclear missiles,
President Kennedy authorized an increase of U-2 missions over the
island. This increase in aerial reconnaissance coverage was caveated
with the limit that all future U-2 flights were to be conducted with
USAF personnel and U-2's from the Strategic Air Command. (124)
President Kennedy ordered the change from CIA to USAF missions in case
there were any shootdowns or losses. His reasoning was that USAF
pilots could be protected and treated as Prisoners of War versus CIA
pilots who would be considered spies. (125) In the meantime, the JCS
enlisted the support of additional aerial reconnaissance assets. Air
Force RB-47's were brought in to fly ELINT missions around the
periphery of the island along with USN F3D ELINT and EC-121 SIGINT
aircraft. (126)

124) In 1956, SAC rejected Kelly Johnson's U-2 design with General
LeMay quoted as saying he didn't need a glider with no guns or wheels
and if he needed aerial reconnaissance he'd use one of his B-36's. By
the time the U-2 program was approved and placed under SAC, he
understood the importance of having the aircraft because the CIA's
intelligence collection affected his bomber procurement. By 1960, SAC
had its own fleet of 24 U-2's and was using them for peripheral SIGINT
and PHOTINT missions.
(125) Jackson, 116.
(126) Lashmar, 191.

http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/77ColdWarS....02byndu-2.htm

I will keep this up until you stop making inaccurate statements

Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 4, 7:37 am, Vince wrote:
Tankfixer wrote:
In article ,
mumbled
TMOliver wrote:
"Vince" wrote ...
Spies get shot at all the time
Doesn't make it a "battlefield"
they were CIA flights
I guess they forgot to tell you that those VFP-62 pilots were in Navy flight
suits flying USNavy a/c - big bright stars and all - out of NAS Key West,
JAX or off CVA decks.
TMO
the U-2 flights were cia
Yes, but did they take the photo's of the SA-2 sites from under 500 feet
and in excess of 700 mph ?
No, they didn't
that is correct, but not the point of the discussion

the Military is much better equipped and focused on battlefield
reconnaissance than the CIA

The U-2 was overwhelmingly a CIA project at that time.
Part of the reason was that CIA missions violated the domestic or
municipal law of the countries we were overflying. A U-2 pilot on an
overflight was a spy and could be shot quite legally. No one could be
"ordered" on such a mission.

The low level flights were different. They were clearly belligerent
acts by the US armed forces. As an act of war, anyone shot down was a
POW.

Vince

In the military there is a concept which we have seen rather
extensively in the past four years, it is called volunteering.

October 14: A U-2 flies over western Cuba, the first Strategic Air
Command (SAC) mission since authority for U-2 surveillance flights was
transferred from the CIA to the Air Force on October 12.
http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~hbf/missile.htm


jane Franklin is a respectable source on Cuba but even her chronolgy
points out

October 15: Analyzing U-2 photographs taken a day earlier, the CIA
informs National Security Adviser McGeorge Bundy that the Soviet Union
is constructing sites for intermediate-range nuclear missiles in Cuba.

The report is formt he CIA, not the air force



and

As more U-2 missions, combined with HUMINT from inside Cuba, began to
build a case for the possible installation of nuclear missiles,
President Kennedy authorized an increase of U-2 missions over the
island. This increase in aerial reconnaissance coverage was caveated
with the limit that all future U-2 flights were to be conducted with
USAF personnel and U-2's from the Strategic Air Command. (124)
President Kennedy ordered the change from CIA to USAF missions in case
there were any shootdowns or losses. His reasoning was that USAF
pilots could be protected and treated as Prisoners of War versus CIA
pilots who would be considered spies. (125)

the problems is that the citation 125 is to

Jackson, Robert. High Cold War: Strategic Air Reconnaissance and the
Electronic Intelligence War. Somerset: Patrick Stephens Limited, 1998.

which is not a primary source
the Avalon project also contains no such document.

Finally as a matter of law the reasoning is ridiculous.

Military officers in peacetime are still spies.


They were still CIA "flights"
conducted by USAF people


Vince

Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 4, 8:15 am, Vince wrote:
Derek Lyons wrote:
Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 3, 4:12 pm, Paul Elliot wrote:
Vince wrote:
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/paul1cart/albums/
Vince is a lawyer, he thinks that if he says the same wrong thing over
and over that will eventually make it true or the listeners will be
asleep. The Air Force Cross given Major Anderson must have been a real
goof by the Air Force and Kennedy.
http://cworld.clemson.edu/Fall2000/12thday.htm
There is nothing that prevents the president from giving a medal to an
air force officer flying for the CIA
You do know that the USAF operated U2's as well?
yes of course
but later

Operational history

Though both the Air Force and the Navy would eventually fly the U-2, it
was originally a CIA operation. Due to the political implications of a
military aircraft invading a country's airspace, only CIA U-2s conducted
overflights. The pilots had to resign their military commissions before
joining the CIA as civilians, a process they referred to as "sheep
dipping".[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_U-2



He was unquestionably engaged in an activity that was a violation of
international law. He could not have been "ordered" on the mission.
Um... Wrong.
It's an "unlawful order"

There is a difference between peacetime and wartime. The U-2
overflights violated international and domestic law. One of the reasons
we have the CIA is to have a system for dealing with the need to engage
in deliberate violations of international law.

Vince

I presume all of the people on these flights were dressed as Maytag
repairmen?

Cold war shoot downs: Part one
Air Classics, Apr 2001 by Larson, George A


DETAILING AMERICAN AIRCRAFT LOSSES IN THE DEADLY GAME Of GATHERING
INTELLIGENCE OVER THE SOVIET UNION

The Cold War between the United States and the former Soviet Union can
be traced to a diplomatic and arms race which started with a speech on
12 March 1947, in the United States. In this speech, before a Joint
Session of the United States Congress, President Harry S Tman
requested a one-time funding appropriation of $400,000,000 which
Congress approved. The funds requested were to provide military
assistance to a beleaguered Greek government to counter a Communist
insurgency in that country.

The term Cold War refers to an intense period of diplomatic and
military hostility, often through client states, blowing up during the
Cuban Missile Crisis which was a near nuclear confrontation between
the United States and the Soviet Union. This confrontation did not end
until the 1990s, with the tearing down of the Berlin Wall in Germany,
and the break up of what President Ronald Reagan referred to as the
"Evil Empire." During this Cold War, United States military aircraft
flew thousands of covert reconnaissance intelligence flights. These
intelligence collection flights gathered electronic signals and
photographic intelligence to verify and identify strategic targets in
the event of a nuclear war between the two Super Powers, and provide
the Strategic Air Command's (SAC) bombers penetration routes into the
Soviet Union.

These missions were classified top secret and considered high risk
military operations because of deliberate violations of Soviet air
space. When and where possible, the Soviet Air Force sent up fighters
to shadow US intelligence flights and to harass, intimidate, and shoot
down these aircraft. Some of these aircraft crew members were captured
by Soviet military forces, survived, and returned to US authorities.
There have been, over a period of years, supposedly live sightings of
American airmen at various confinement camps.
more

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...04/ai_n8949287



Better give names dates and places of deliberate overflights of
territory, not cruisng past the border (airspace)


Vince

On May 4, 8:48 am, Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 4, 8:15 am, Vince wrote:
Derek Lyons wrote:
Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 3, 4:12 pm, Paul Elliot wrote:
Vince wrote:
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/paul1cart/albums/
Vince is a lawyer, he thinks that if he says the same wrong thing over
and over that will eventually make it true or the listeners will be
asleep. The Air Force Cross given Major Anderson must have been a real
goof by the Air Force and Kennedy.
http://cworld.clemson.edu/Fall2000/12thday.htm
There is nothing that prevents the president from giving a medal to an
air force officer flying for the CIA
You do know that the USAF operated U2's as well?
yes of course
but later

Operational history

Though both the Air Force and the Navy would eventually fly the U-2, it
was originally a CIA operation. Due to the political implications of a
military aircraft invading a country's airspace, only CIA U-2s conducted
overflights. The pilots had to resign their military commissions before
joining the CIA as civilians, a process they referred to as "sheep
dipping".[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_U-2

He was unquestionably engaged in an activity that was a violation of
international law. He could not have been "ordered" on the mission.
Um... Wrong.
It's an "unlawful order"

There is a difference between peacetime and wartime. The U-2
overflights violated international and domestic law. One of the reasons
we have the CIA is to have a system for dealing with the need to engage
in deliberate violations of international law.

Vince

I presume all of the people on these flights were dressed as Maytag
repairmen?

Cold war shoot downs: Part one
Air Classics, Apr 2001 by Larson, George A

DETAILING AMERICAN AIRCRAFT LOSSES IN THE DEADLY GAME Of GATHERING
INTELLIGENCE OVER THE SOVIET UNION

The Cold War between the United States and the former Soviet Union can
be traced to a diplomatic and arms race which started with a speech on
12 March 1947, in the United States. In this speech, before a Joint
Session of the United States Congress, President Harry S Tman
requested a one-time funding appropriation of $400,000,000 which
Congress approved. The funds requested were to provide military
assistance to a beleaguered Greek government to counter a Communist
insurgency in that country.

The term Cold War refers to an intense period of diplomatic and
military hostility, often through client states, blowing up during the
Cuban Missile Crisis which was a near nuclear confrontation between
the United States and the Soviet Union. This confrontation did not end
until the 1990s, with the tearing down of the Berlin Wall in Germany,
and the break up of what President Ronald Reagan referred to as the
"Evil Empire." During this Cold War, United States military aircraft
flew thousands of covert reconnaissance intelligence flights. These
intelligence collection flights gathered electronic signals and
photographic intelligence to verify and identify strategic targets in
the event of a nuclear war between the two Super Powers, and provide
the Strategic Air Command's (SAC) bombers penetration routes into the
Soviet Union.

These missions were classified top secret and considered high risk
military operations because of deliberate violations of Soviet air
space. When and where possible, the Soviet Air Force sent up fighters
to shadow US intelligence flights and to harass, intimidate, and shoot
down these aircraft. Some of these aircraft crew members were captured
by Soviet military forces, survived, and returned to US authorities.
There have been, over a period of years, supposedly live sightings of
American airmen at various confinement camps.
more

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...04/ai_n8949287

Better give names dates and places of deliberate overflights of
territory, not cruisng past the border (airspace)

Vince

Vince, you are lost. You can fiddle with whether a document is legit
or not and then turn around and say because a series of photographs
are examined at a CIA facility, actually manned by both CIA and
Pentagon people, that makes it a CIA job. Curtis Lemay made sure the
Strategic Air Command and secondarily the U.S. Air Force knew the
pilot that got those photos was a SAC pilot. Still need to explain all
those F8Us that got shot at in a non-battlefield.

Around noon that day (October 27) a Lockheed U-2 piloted by Rudolph
Anderson was shot down by an SA-2 Guideline SAM emplacement,
increasing the stress in negotiations between the USSR and the U.S. It
was later learned that the decision to fire was made locally by a
Soviet commander on his own authority, although exactly who this was
is a matter of some debate. Later that day, at about 3:41 p.m.,
several F8U Crusader aircraft on low-level recce missions were fired
upon, and one was hit by a 37 mm shell but managed to return to base.

"Tex Houston" wrote in message
.. .

"TMOliver" wrote in message
...
As for the RB-66's use in combat photo recon, the bird performed didn't
last long in that role (just as it had not done well as a bomber),
replaced quickly by far more survivable RF4s. The RB-66 was unsuited for
low level battlefield recon, too slow (and to the air crew who flew them
sharing with the A3 and EA3s the dicey escape method, down, instead of
the more conventional upward ejection). The RB-57s were developed to do
what the RB-66 did, while the Navy's last version of a similar a/c, the
EA3, flew on for many years, longer than the attempt to salvage the
Navy's A-5 program with the RA5C.

TMO
Which model A3 had ejection seats?

None, and I'll admit to the syntax above being a bit confusing.

Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 4, 8:48 am, Vince wrote:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...04/ai_n8949287
Better give names dates and places of deliberate overflights of
territory, not cruisng past the border (airspace)

Vince

Vince, you are lost. You can fiddle with whether a document is legit
or not and then turn around and say because a series of photographs
are examined at a CIA facility, actually manned by both CIA and
Pentagon people, that makes it a CIA job. Curtis Lemay made sure the
Strategic Air Command and secondarily the U.S. Air Force knew the
pilot that got those photos was a SAC pilot.


it was a CIA flight part of a long standing CIA operation




Still need to explain all
those F8Us that got shot at in a non-battlefield.


This is a separate issue
Francis Gary Powers was not in a battlefield

Around noon that day (October 27) a Lockheed U-2 piloted by Rudolph
Anderson was shot down by an SA-2 Guideline SAM emplacement,
increasing the stress in negotiations between the USSR and the U.S. It
was later learned that the decision to fire was made locally by a
Soviet commander on his own authority, although exactly who this was
is a matter of some debate.

Why should a "battlefield" shoot increase stress?
the reason is that its not a battlefield


Later that day, at about 3:41 p.m.,
several F8U Crusader aircraft on low-level recce missions were fired
upon, and one was hit by a 37 mm shell but managed to return to base.


Still not a "battlefield"

Vince

"Vince" wrote in message
...
Tankfixer wrote:
In article ,
mumbled
TMOliver wrote:
"Vince" wrote ...

Spies get shot at all the time
Doesn't make it a "battlefield"
they were CIA flights

I guess they forgot to tell you that those VFP-62 pilots were in Navy
flight suits flying USNavy a/c - big bright stars and all - out of NAS
Key West, JAX or off CVA decks.

TMO

the U-2 flights were cia

Yes, but did they take the photo's of the SA-2 sites from under 500 feet
and in excess of 700 mph ?

No, they didn't

that is correct, but not the point of the discussion


the Military is much better equipped and focused on battlefield
reconnaissance than the CIA

The U-2 was overwhelmingly a CIA project at that time.
Part of the reason was that CIA missions violated the domestic or
municipal law of the countries we were overflying. A U-2 pilot on an
overflight was a spy and could be shot quite legally. No one could be
"ordered" on such a mission.

The low level flights were different. They were clearly belligerent acts
by the US armed forces. As an act of war, anyone shot down was a POW.

Vince

The argument could be made that if you fly as high as a U-2, especially back
in the early days, were you really in national airspace anyway? According to
the FAI (Int'l Aeronautical Federation) near-space starts at 75,000 feet,
and according to Wiki the U-2R has a service ceiling of 90,000 feet.

To the best of my knowledge there isn't even any accepted altitude below
which one is in territorial airspace. Clearly there sort of must be such an
altitude, because nobody reasonably suggests that a satellite at 250 km is
violating anything. Also, you can't necessarily say that airspace goes up to
the level that balloons can reach or suborbital craft can reach or airfoils
can maintain lift, because the definition of the maximum limits of a
territorial sea is 12 miles, which in this day and age is highly artificial
also.

AHS