Gloom

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 19:52:15 GMT, Kevin Clarke
wrote:

Nathan Young wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:04:15 GMT, Kevin Clarke
wrote:


AJ wrote:

...

Airports need to be viewed in the same manner. Any single airport
does not matter that much, but when viewed in aggregate, the entire
system is invaluable to our ability to quickly deliver goods/services
throughout the country.

-Nathan

Thanks, I'll buy this argument that makes sense. It is a variation on
the network effect.

Good analogy. I like it.

-Nathan

("ktbr" wrote)
1) Have no criminal record.
2) Have a job, or had a job and be retired.
3) Not be collecting a government check for subsistance
other than a Social Security or retirement check.
4) Not be a party in any pending lawsuit or legal action.


I'm ok with a wide variety of people serving - if they can keep up in the
training phase.

The "training" phase is where we weed out the dreamers (and the not quite
able to grasp some core ideas) people, and the people who won't do the work
necessary to finish the training class ...and pass the test. Hey, kinda like
a (mini) bar exam!

So I'm pretty stringent on the back end and more open on the front end.
You're the reverse.


Paul-Mont

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
Read some of the links on the site I posted and you decide. But unless,
before the dry cleaner lost the pants, he used them to beat the judge there
is no way this claim is worth $54mil.

Surprisingly, this is a case that even the trial lawyers trade
association is saying should not have made it to trial.
(Then again, it is the judge and not a trial attorney who is
representing himself in this case.)

Was he =awarded= anything ridiculous?

Read some of the links on the site I posted and you decide. But unless,
before the dry cleaner lost the pants, he used them to beat the judge there
is no way this claim is worth $54mil.

The links seem to be long on opinion and short on facts, and the trial
is not over yet. No matter. Everyone is being silly in this case; the
pity is it costs real people real money.

Suing is still a gamble, not on whether you win or lose, but on whether
you can intimidate the other party into folding. A loser pays system
would not address the intimidation part, since the (significantly)
richer party can afford the loss but may well choose to proceed anyway,
hoping to chicken the other party out.

OF course the claim above is not worth $54 million. I don't think
anybody, including the claimant, believes it is.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Jun 17, 9:06 pm, Jay Honeck wrote:

Get out there and FLY, people!

I appreciate learning info like this,even though I don't really want
to know it.

I love flying, but unless I ever come into some kind of mad money, I
will always be a club pilot and/or renter, with its huge cost
advantages but huge drawbacks in the areas of availability and control
of your own aviation destiny.

I am flying to Oshkosh for the first time this year but I have a
sneaking suspicion in the back of my mind that given the way aviation
is going, Oshkosh 2007 may be my last hurrah of aviation. On the one
hand I hope not, but besides accumulating more ratings I don't see
much to drive to me to keep flying given the expense and the high
percentage of my flying time and budget that goes to staying
proficient to allow me to take hypothetical trips that never seem to
happen for whatever reason -- weather, schedule, etc. In six years of
flying I have taken exaclty two long distance x-country trips where I
got full utility and enjoyment out of my years of investment, and they
were great. Far more have been cancelled. Oshkosh will be the
third. Maybe I should look more closely at light sport. Maybe the
IFR rating isn't worth the trouble and money I went through to get it
and what it takes to keep it current. I was thinking of going for my
commercial but I have to ask why? To become an instructor in my
retirement from the cube farm, but will there be anyone left to
instruct by then?

AOPA may be doing us a service by warning about the doom coming with
the FAA's next authorization bill, but I suspect I'm not the only one
who finds that the AOPA propaganda is more effective at being
discouraging than galvanizing action. Not trying to start a poltical
flame war but it's clear we have an administration that listens to no
one, and will do whatever it wants to no matter the evidence, public
opinion and consequences, or alternatively you could say they stand by
what they think is right come what may, but either way it's clear that
what they are bent on doing is destroying GA with this year's FAA
"reforms" and their drive to privatize.

I do think clubs will be the salvation of aviation, or at least the
life support system that keeps it limping along for several more
years. It's really the only way the "everyman" that you refer to can
afford to keep flying.

On Jun 17, 8:06 pm, Jay Honeck wrote:
The general consensus, after too many gin & tonics, was that the entry-
level Cherokee owners were the owners who were barely able to afford
ownership in the first place, and have been most devastated by the
recent 25% increase in fuel costs. In other words, they were the
"canaries in the bird cage", and have died first and quickest, to
serve as a warning to us all...

I've been accused of being a troll over this, but didn't i mention
something about aircraft prices being out of reach of the general
public, and that would be a major factor in the decline of GA?

Just how much is an "entry level" cherokee?

dont give me just a dollar price, give me a percentage of a persons
average income versus 20 years ago.

"Larry Dighera" wrote:

As I recall, the cost of fuel makes up the major portion of the cost
of aircraft ownership and operation.

Depends on how much capital you have tied up in the airplane and how much you
fly. For me, the cost of money is by far the largest expense.


[snip]


Welcome to the land of government of the people, by the corporations,
and for the corporations. And thanks for voting for that sniveling
nepotistic who is squandering our hard earned tax dollars at the rate
of $3 billion a week on a pointless war while irrationally supporting
the right of a zygote to Constitutional protections, irrationally
obstructing embryonic stem cell research, and embarrassing our once
proud nation on the world stage with his ineffectual illiteracy and
shallow comprehension. .

Yes, our fearless leader is a feckless idiot; even conservative commentators
are now saying so. But he's merely a figurehead: look behind the curtain for
the real bad guys.

Maybe the corrupt Congress will right things

Maybe pigs will fly.


--
Dan

"Almost all the matter that came out of the Big Bang was two specific sorts;
hydrogen, and stupidity."

-Robert Carnegie in talk.origins

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

"Larry Dighera" wrote:

As I recall, the cost of fuel makes up the major portion of the cost
of aircraft ownership and operation.

Depends on how much capital you have tied up in the airplane and how much
you
fly. For me, the cost of money is by far the largest expense.


The cost of money, or of having it tied up, and the cost of storage seem to
be the two biggest problems for the owners personally known to me. OTOH,
fuel seems to be more of a verbalized annoyance--which converts readily to a
hamberger (or omelet, depending on the time of day) flight to an airport
with less expensive fuel.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ups.com...
IMHO, Piper is foolish for not going into this market.

Agree 100%. They claim there is "no margin" in LSA aircraft, but I
don't believe it.

We've had our
school open for just under two months and are picking up students from 4
states at a rate of a half dozen a week.

Contrast this with our local FBO's attitude toward Light Sport:

We recently had a guest who was interested in pursuing his dream of
flying, and wanted to go Light Sport. I told him that I'd see if I
could find an LSA instructor and aircraft in which he could train.

My first call was naturally to our local FBO, whose response was blunt
and telling: "We don't mess with that ****."

Our FBO, like so many others, only provides flight training because
it's a requirement of their contract with the city. In the absence of
that contract, they would close their flight school in a heartbeat,
preferring to cater to the King Air and Citation crowd...

Our guest found an instructor and aircraft at a smaller, nearby
airport, so the story doesn't end entirely sadly. But it's just SO
frustrating to see the skies over Iowa City slowly becoming empty
thanks to people in the industry who simply don't understand that
without an active, proactive interest in flight training EVERYTHING
stops in about ten years.

Forgive me, as I'm not a pilot (yet). I've spent way too much time thinking
about the interrelation of lots of things lately, which feeds into this
discussion. If "aviation" were so important to pilots, you'd think that
they'd be willing to invest their time into it. I go to lots of fly-ins and
it is always the same(with a few exceptions): decrepit airports, and GHOFs
(Gray-Haired-Old-Farts) complaining about the Government, health care, price
of avgas, price of mogas, and what-ever suits their fancy to complain about
at the moment. At every fly-in there is always the small group of people
actually doing the work, but they are in the minority. And given the
demographics of the situation, it is all but terminal, which was the reason
for SP/LSA in the first place. Yet if you go back into the SP/LSA history,
you'll find lots of comments that it wasn't needed, that things
(demographically) were just fine as they were. Regarding the cost of LSAs,
considering that a brand new Savannah (painted, engined, and avioniced) is
less than $65K and that there are a lot of new cars/trucks in the road that
sell for more than half of that, the cost ratio of cars/trucks versus
airplanes hasn't changed that much (for a starter/LSA airplane, at least)
over
the decades.

So, what are the reasons behind the decline of (small) GA?

1. I can accept, to a limited point, fuel cost. But the cost of mogas
is identical to the cost of mogas last year (I assume avgas is somewhat
similar),
yet there is a big dropoff in activity. I keep coming back to demographics,
and that many of the pilots are not flying as much because of their age.
But that shouldn't amount to such a drop off in a single year. Over a
decade
though, it will be a killer.

2. Other interests. Everyone is familiar with "AIDS" (Aviation Induced
Divorce Syndrome), and this might be the opposite of it. Pilots still have
the same amount of hours in the day, so what are they spending their time
on? Most sectors of the ecomony have been booming, so they probably are
spending more hours on the job, and more hours recuperating from it. But
those hours spent recuperating aren't being spent doing hanger flying, at
least from what I've seen. As TV viewership is going down, they aren't
spending it watching TV either. Internet surfing probably has a significant
effect. I think demographics enters here as well. Taking care of the aging
spouse, visiting friends "who don't go out as much anymore", and going to
see the grandkids in rehab (again) are huge time-sinks.

3. Architecture. I think this has more to do with it than most people
realize. Most airports I visit hadn't see much construction activity or
maintenance since Johnson was President, if not earlier. They aren't
inviting places. Mentally, people will unconsciously not go to places that
aren't inviting when there is an alternative.

4. In events over the last couple of days, I'm convinced this is the
killer: Retirement. People my parent's age (I'm 48, but my parents were
both 44 when I was born) just assumed they would work until they died.
Their concept of "retirement" was that they could work less, if they wanted
to. People my age are focused on retirement as perhaps their greatest goal
in life. Make enough money, and put enough of it away, that you can afford
to retire by 55 at the latest. If you assume you are going to retire at 55
and live until 85, you have to put a lot of money away, money that can't be
spent on actually living your life in the present (like buying a plane and
flying). If, on the other hand, you assume something like: cut down to 32
hours a week at 55, 24 hours a week at 62, 20 hours at 65, and 16 hours a
week at 67 and beyond, the math works out a lot differently. What makes all
this really sad, is that a lot of people that put a lot of it away have lost
it, where an airplane would have been a better investment.

So, what needs to be done?

First of all, GA needs to reach out. I had never been in anything smaller
than a 737 until just a few years ago, and didn't even know what GA was.
I've just helped Arlington put together a flyer for why non-pilots should
come to the Arlington Fly-in; they had never thought about before. Note:
I've heard more than a few pilots complain that "Fly-ins are for pilots, the
rest of the folks should just stay away!". "Fly-ins" are a really bad term
from a marketing standpoint, why would anyone who wasn't a pilot want to
attend a fly-in, and why would they even be expected to know what a fly-in
was in the first place? I think "Aviation Fair" is a much better term, but
I'm not going to fight the battle. On all the signs I make for fly-ins, the
first words below "Fly-In" are "Everyone Welcome!". Invite the local Scout
troops (or summer school or church school, etc) out to the airport and give
them a show-and-tell. Invite their parents to come as well (I know of some
people that live within 3 miles of a fairly busy field that didn't even know
that it was there). Scouts are having trouble finding places to camp
anymore, why not let them camp at the airport? Issue press releases about
Angel Flights, etc. Take a reporter up for a flight. Think guerilla
marketing.

Second of all, airports need to be inviting. Have your local FBO/EAA
chapter/whatever "adopt" the airport from the government agency, and put up
the signs just like the "This street adopted by..." signs. Fix the damn
potholes, clean up the potato chip bags clinging to the chainlink fence.
Make sure the restroom/portapotty is clean. Put in that wifi connection.
Make
the CTAF available on a Part 15 FM transmitter and/or leaky coax so people
can sit in their cars outside the fence and listen. You can even stream it
over the web. Does your airport even have an AOPA Airport Support
Network representative? Have a website that lists events at the airport,
have a sign
at the airport as well. Paint the buildings! Do the sheriff's deputies
know
they can make potty stops at the airport? Build more hangers, even if
people are going to store RVs in them, build foot and car traffic at the
airport. Put up picnic tables!

Finally, everyone in GA needs to market GA, something that isn't easy
for a lot of people. Do you have a license plate frame that says "My
Other Car is a Cessna" (or appropriate)? How about one that says
:"Ask Me How You Can Learn to Fly!"? Know the questions people
are going to ask, and have answers for them. I was just at the dentist and
got a hygienist there interested in attending Arlington.

Many people are going to say "Why should I have to do any of this crap,
I just want to fly!" And that is the rub. Unless GA people are willing to
do the little things, more than they should "have to", the future has
already
been written. The old adage in business is "If you don't take care of your
Customers, your competitors will." It has always easier to keep a Customer
than to earn a new one. GA has been on the defensive for way too long,
fighting at best what can called a tactical retreat. The reason to fight a
tactical retreat is to regroup and counter-attack when the time is right.
The time will never be righter than it is right now. The House has said
there
will be no user fees. Time to galvanize. Send thank you notes to the
Congress critters who vote against user fees. But be part of the solution.

Forgive me, as I'm not a pilot (yet). I've spent way too much time thinking
about the interrelation of lots of things lately, which feeds into this
discussion. If "aviation" were so important to pilots, you'd think that
they'd be willing to invest their time into it.

Bravo for an outstanding post.

Sadly, it's one I might have written myself, five or ten years ago.
(Check the archives -- I probably did!) Back then, I was the new guy
at the airport, frustrated by the inertia and lack of enthusiasm
amongst pilots, and wondering why no one was *doing* anything.

As time has gone on, however, and I've tried various and sundry things
(you may not know it, but I've taken love of aviation about as far as
one can in the real world, up to and including creating an aviation
themed hotel at our airport), I've grown increasingly cynical and
weary of the battle. Pilots just won't do much of anything (other
than fly), even if its in their best interest.

And getting pilots to agree to ANYTHING is like herding cats. Almost
by definition, we pilots are a bunch of independent, contrarian cusses
who rarely (if ever) admit to "following" anyone. They are leaders,
not followers, and if that means they walk alone, well, so be it.

This attitude, while not without merit, doesn't lead to the
construction of any kind of a political coalition. In today's touchy-
feely consensus building society, the strong silent types don't get
much done. In fact, they are looked upon as "loners" or, worse,
psychopaths, and are thus marginalized.

I'm afraid that, rightly or wrongly, people view us pilots as off-the-
wall, slightly crazy people. (I'd have to agree, in many cases.)
This hasn't helped our cause, of course, and tend to steer people away
from aviation.

Still, this same attitude is/was prevalent toward motorcycling, and
yet they have managed to thrive. (Although I've heard sales of cycles
is way down in the last few years.) I wonder if motorcycling (often
seen as very similar to flying) hasn't siphoned some interest away
from flying? It's certainly more affordable.

Anyway, great post. Food for thought.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"