Canadian pilot posts ILLEGAL flight into US on OLC

On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 1:56:17 PM UTC-7, Bruce Friesen wrote:
On Wednesday, July 24, 2019 at 7:22:27 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
This pilot made a DEEP entry into the US w/o, apparently, following the laws of the US:

Sorry, I should resist but I cannot.

This thread could be both amusing and informative, and well worth while. Unfortunately, the original poster is so keen to defend his error.

Every day, Westjet takes off from Vancouver and flies to Puerto Vallarta. For one example amongst hundreds. Every day. Clearly, there is some legal mechanism to do that. There is no doubt in my mind Chester has an understanding of the mechanisms and rules applicable to what he specifically is doing.

Should a passenger have a medical emergency on that Westjet flight, it will land in the U.S. not at the closest point of entry. Clearly, this is some legal mechanism to sort that out after the fact. Chester would be able to defend a landing as an emergency, given it would happen only with both a radical change in weather conditions and an engine failure.

I will concede that Chester's flight WAS NOT illegal, as I stated in the title. I did get a call-back from the Spokane FSDO, and it was pretty anti-climatic; they merely referred me to an AOPA webpage (which is pretty informative and is much better than the FAA's):

https://www.aopa.org/travel/international-travel/canada

It does mention not having to file an eAPIS, but no relief from the other requirements, if a flight that originates and ends at US airports, but crosses into Canadian airspace. It does not refer to the reverse situation, which would be Chester's case. The medical emergency you describe is bona fide; I am not as sure about Chester's case, which most likely would be weather related. And it would depend totally on which officer you had to deal with. Personally, I would not take the risk for this reason alone.

Tom

On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 2:57:46 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 6:17:50 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Dickhead. Are you waiting for a response from the FSDO so you can tattle? At least he went back to where he came from, and by choice. Different situation down here on the southern border of the US.

Hello Fellow Dickhead,

I don't need to "tattle" on anyone: Chester did that all by himself by posting his flight on a public forum. Furthermore, my objective is to learn the nuances of the law, not to "tattle." And a quick search turned up the following US Code:

8 U.S. Code § 1287. Alien crewmen brought into the United States with intent to evade immigration laws; penalties

Any person, including the owner, agent, consignee, master, or commanding officer of any vessel or aircraft arriving in the United States from any place outside thereof, who shall knowingly sign on the vessel’s articles, or bring to the United States as one of the crew of such vessel or aircraft, any alien, with intent to permit or assist such alien to enter or land in the United States in violation of law, or who shall falsely and knowingly represent to a consular officer at the time of application for visa, or to the immigration officer at the port of arrival in the United States, that such alien is a bona fide member of the crew employed in any capacity regularly required for normal operation and services aboard such vessel or aircraft, shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding $10,000 for each such violation, for which sum such vessel or aircraft shall be liable and may be seized and proceeded against by way of libel in any district court of the United States having jurisdiction of the offense.

=================

Remember, if you get into a dispute with these folks, THEY will be deciding what "intent" means, NOT YOU! Chester, IMO, is skating on thin ice with these flights. He said he was vague about his flight plan, which will be potentially viewed by authorities as being evasive. And if he were forced to land in the US for ANY reason he would clearly be in violation of the law, and be at a very real risk of having his glider seized and a stiff fine imposed. You knuckleheads seem to think that you can violate the law and, if caught, you can talk your way out of it with something ridiculous like "declaring an emergency." Well, THINK AGAIN! These officers hear this crap every day from real criminals and are well versed in the law. Eric had a very close call on this, and only a comment by his wife to a customs officer at the border saved him running afoul with authorities. This is SERIOUS BUSINESS! Unlike most of the rest of you, I actually have Chester's best interests at heart.


Jeez Tom - If you find yourself in a hole the generally accepted advice is to stop digging rather than breaking out the backhoe.

Here’s a tip: Not a single person reading this thread thinks any of the defenses or deflections you’ve posted since have in any way justified the mistake of the original post. Quite the opposite. Blaming Chester for not preventing you from jumping to a wrong conclusion was just icing on the incredulity cake. Bringing in irrelevant customs or immigration regulations as defense for being wrong on an FAR topic is pure deflection.

You’ve expended an immense amount of energy trying to convince only yourself that you weren’t mistaken in your original post. Each additional post antagonizes more people but convinces no one. It’s a rare personality that elects to twist reality that far for self-rationalization - in this case seemingly without any recognition that everyone else sees through it. Go back and read my link to the psychology article, then have a private sit-down for some self-reflection.

Here’s a cut and paste reply for your next post:

“Chester - My bad, I had no idea you’d filed a flight plan. Congrats on such a great flight and the foresight to deal with ATC ahead of time. I’m curious if you’ve given much thought to what you’d do if you were forced to land before re-entering Canadian airspace. It seems like that might open up and entirely different can of worms with a different government agency�.

Just a suggestion. Or you can keep digging.

Happy soaring.

Andy Blackburn
9B

Ramy wrote on 7/26/2019 11:48 AM:
On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 11:28:30 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 7/26/2019 7:44 AM:
Jeez much ado about nothing. Harold Eloy made multiple very long (for a 1-26) flights out of canada into North Dakota and beyond. If the perfect day materializes for a flight into canada I will go for it, talk to whoever I can get from ATC and deal with customs after the fact. Its much easier to ask for forgiveness than it is for permission much of the time.

I suggest you research this choice before you use it. If it's not an emergency,
and you land in Canada or the USA without permission, they may not be very
forgiving. Confiscation of your glider seems a real possibility. My experience
with Customs (US and Canada) is they are often deeply offended by people that
don't follow the correct protocol, and it can expensive and time-consuming to deal
with them.


Technically we can declare any glider landout as an emergency. May require to follow up with paperwork, but may be better than dealing with custom...

I suspect Customs on either side would not buy that story if you flew into the
country and never made an attempt to return, unless weather clearly prevented you
from doing so (my situation on my only cross-border flight). Our own literature
(soaring articles, RAS, etc) could easily be used against a "technical" claim.

I think Chester's example is a good one: file a flight plan, talk to ATC on both
sides before you need to, and have a motor that can get you back to your country
without landing. So, Rami, order that ASG-29ES and move to Montana!


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

Our posts crossed in the ether. I give you partial credit for a partial admission. That you needed to soften the blow to your ego with the qualifier afterwards kind of makes it sound a little half-hearted, but I’ll count it as progress. Congrats.

Andy

On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 4:14:03 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 2:57:46 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 6:17:50 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Dickhead. Are you waiting for a response from the FSDO so you can tattle? At least he went back to where he came from, and by choice. Different situation down here on the southern border of the US.

Hello Fellow Dickhead,

I don't need to "tattle" on anyone: Chester did that all by himself by posting his flight on a public forum. Furthermore, my objective is to learn the nuances of the law, not to "tattle." And a quick search turned up the following US Code:

8 U.S. Code § 1287. Alien crewmen brought into the United States with intent to evade immigration laws; penalties

Any person, including the owner, agent, consignee, master, or commanding officer of any vessel or aircraft arriving in the United States from any place outside thereof, who shall knowingly sign on the vessel’s articles, or bring to the United States as one of the crew of such vessel or aircraft, any alien, with intent to permit or assist such alien to enter or land in the United States in violation of law, or who shall falsely and knowingly represent to a consular officer at the time of application for visa, or to the immigration officer at the port of arrival in the United States, that such alien is a bona fide member of the crew employed in any capacity regularly required for normal operation and services aboard such vessel or aircraft, shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding $10,000 for each such violation, for which sum such vessel or aircraft shall be liable and may be seized and proceeded against by way of libel in any district court of the United States having jurisdiction of the offense.

=================

Remember, if you get into a dispute with these folks, THEY will be deciding what "intent" means, NOT YOU! Chester, IMO, is skating on thin ice with these flights. He said he was vague about his flight plan, which will be potentially viewed by authorities as being evasive. And if he were forced to land in the US for ANY reason he would clearly be in violation of the law, and be at a very real risk of having his glider seized and a stiff fine imposed. You knuckleheads seem to think that you can violate the law and, if caught, you can talk your way out of it with something ridiculous like "declaring an emergency." Well, THINK AGAIN! These officers hear this crap every day from real criminals and are well versed in the law. Eric had a very close call on this, and only a comment by his wife to a customs officer at the border saved him running afoul with authorities. This is SERIOUS BUSINESS! Unlike most of the rest of you, I actually have Chester's best interests at heart.


Jeez Tom - If you find yourself in a hole the generally accepted advice is to stop digging rather than breaking out the backhoe.

Here’s a tip: Not a single person reading this thread thinks any of the defenses or deflections you’ve posted since have in any way justified the mistake of the original post. Quite the opposite. Blaming Chester for not preventing you from jumping to a wrong conclusion was just icing on the incredulity cake. Bringing in irrelevant customs or immigration regulations as defense for being wrong on an FAR topic is pure deflection.

You’ve expended an immense amount of energy trying to convince only yourself that you weren’t mistaken in your original post. Each additional post antagonizes more people but convinces no one. It’s a rare personality that elects to twist reality that far for self-rationalization - in this case seemingly without any recognition that everyone else sees through it. Go back and read my link to the psychology article, then have a private sit-down for some self-reflection.

Here’s a cut and paste reply for your next post:

“Chester - My bad, I had no idea you’d filed a flight plan. Congrats on such a great flight and the foresight to deal with ATC ahead of time. I’m curious if you’ve given much thought to what you’d do if you were forced to land before re-entering Canadian airspace. It seems like that might open up and entirely different can of worms with a different government agency�.

Just a suggestion. Or you can keep digging.

Happy soaring.

Andy Blackburn
9B

Andy,

At this point nothing that I say will please you, so I won't try.

Tom

On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 2:28:57 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 7/26/2019 12:57 PM:

Remember, if you get into a dispute with these folks, THEY will be deciding what "intent" means, NOT YOU! Chester, IMO, is skating on thin ice with these flights. He said he was vague about his flight plan, which will be potentially viewed by authorities as being evasive. And if he were forced to land in the US for ANY reason he would clearly be in violation of the law, and be at a very real risk of having his glider seized and a stiff fine imposed. You knuckleheads seem to think that you can violate the law and, if caught, you can talk your way out of it with something ridiculous like "declaring an emergency." Well, THINK AGAIN! These officers hear this crap every day from real criminals and are well versed in the law. Eric had a very close call on this, and only a comment by his wife to a customs officer at the border saved him running afoul with authorities. This is SERIOUS BUSINESS! Unlike most of the rest of you, I actually have Chester's best interests at heart.

Tom remembers my incident correctly, but I don't think it's relevant to Chester's
flight. My situation was very different, because I contacted no one before or
after flying across the border (my bad - ignorance over 35 years ago), nor did I
contact anyone after I landed. Had I contacted the FSS at any time while flying
(and perhaps even after landing), customs would have been notified by the FSS, and
all would have been well.

Chester made sure everyone knew his intent before and during the flight, and
conducted it with the cooperation of ATC. He was flying a motorglider (I wasn't),
and could reasonably expect to return to Canada without landing. If ATC believed
he was operating illegally, they could've requested he land, but they didn't.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

The only problem here is that you are dealing with two separate agencies, the FAA and the CBP. ATC's objectives (FAA) and duties are very much different from CBP, and it will be CBP that you will have to deal with (as you did), not the FAA. What it gets down to is: are you willing to throw the dice about how a CBP officer is going to react to a possible illegal landing (and something they never encountered before and have no understanding of)?

Tom

I awarded you some points, that’s something.

;-)

On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 5:49:18 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
I awarded you some points, that’s something.

;-)

I'm THRILLED!

Totally agree....!!!!

2G wrote on 7/26/2019 5:45 PM:
On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 2:28:57 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 7/26/2019 12:57 PM:

Remember, if you get into a dispute with these folks, THEY will be deciding what "intent" means, NOT YOU! Chester, IMO, is skating on thin ice with these flights. He said he was vague about his flight plan, which will be potentially viewed by authorities as being evasive. And if he were forced to land in the US for ANY reason he would clearly be in violation of the law, and be at a very real risk of having his glider seized and a stiff fine imposed. You knuckleheads seem to think that you can violate the law and, if caught, you can talk your way out of it with something ridiculous like "declaring an emergency." Well, THINK AGAIN! These officers hear this crap every day from real criminals and are well versed in the law. Eric had a very close call on this, and only a comment by his wife to a customs officer at the border saved him running afoul with authorities. This is SERIOUS BUSINESS! Unlike most of the rest of you, I actually have Chester's best interests at heart.

Tom remembers my incident correctly, but I don't think it's relevant to Chester's
flight. My situation was very different, because I contacted no one before or
after flying across the border (my bad - ignorance over 35 years ago), nor did I
contact anyone after I landed. Had I contacted the FSS at any time while flying
(and perhaps even after landing), customs would have been notified by the FSS, and
all would have been well.

Chester made sure everyone knew his intent before and during the flight, and
conducted it with the cooperation of ATC. He was flying a motorglider (I wasn't),
and could reasonably expect to return to Canada without landing. If ATC believed
he was operating illegally, they could've requested he land, but they didn't.


The only problem here is that you are dealing with two separate agencies, the FAA and the CBP. ATC's objectives (FAA) and duties are very much different from CBP, and it will be CBP that you will have to deal with (as you did), not the FAA. What it gets down to is: are you willing to throw the dice about how a CBP officer is going to react to a possible illegal landing (and something they never encountered before and have no understanding of)?

In my case, I dealt with neither the CBP or the FAA. It was US Customs that was
upset I had entered the USA and landed without permission or clearing Customs.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf