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#301
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Mar 20, 3:43*pm, Andrew Chaplin
wrote: William Black wrote : Ken S. Tucker wrote: On Mar 20, 10:21 am, William Black wrote: It's not an acronym, *it's a code word. Well I missed that memo. You're not kidding. After 2-3 years he wrote a stack of reports that would fill a filing cabinet, probably still classified. Oh no they won't be. In canuckistan it's secret or once declassified it's burned, didn't you get the memo. ********. It's filed away and released when of no interest to anyone but historians. Exactly. My father's last post before retirement was as the Senior Research Officer in the Directorate of History of NDHQ in Ottawa from about *'71 to '82. One of his secondary duties was directorate security officer. As such, he was responsible for more classified documents than anyone else in NDHQ, and he, under the instructions of the Director, controled access to every classifed document in RG24 at the National Archives. They had tonnes of documents in 600 filing cabinets and safes in the Ogilvie Annex of NDHQ, and every six months he had to go through a classified document muster. My father's magnum opus in his last years was to help draft the Access to Information Act's declassification sections. He did it with a view to releasing as much as possible as soon as possible, because he knew that keeping secrets is expensive. However, he knew that some secrets might have to be kept forever. (I suspect that the "forever" secrets have more to do with our allies than our erstwhile enemies.) Many commanders in chief weren't given ULTRA access. Old Boy told me he was a corporal, So he didn't actually have any access at all. Corporals working on BIGOT material likely only handled envelopes and folders, or PA'ed documents to file and little else. I presume said personel were ordered to provide full cooperation, so he wouldn't need to give a rat's ass about ULTRA, except how effective it was, to feedback into the chain of command, his duties in that respect were more than clerical. You mean he was an intelligence clerk. Tucker appears to have woven an old boy's yarn into whole cloth. RCAF trained him for a year in Pathfinder Navigation prior to making him a de-briefer, Not a chance. Anyone the RCAF took the trouble to train as a navigator went on to flying duties--unless he washed out for medical or other reasons. Aircrew were all promoted to sergeant on selection. and navigation involves a lot of secret stuff, so he likely ended up knowing more about ULTRA than ULTRA did, Take it from me, *anyone selected for aircrew training wouldn't have been allowed within a mile of ULTRA And any secret stuff people on flying duties saw had a very, very short shelf life. *where results are concerned, and then write a synopsis for strategists, based on de-briefing from fielded and experienced personel. Corporals don't. Barges are ultra cheap, especially when they're empty. And so easy to sink, *especially at night. But look at what you're risking, to sink a cheap barge. Barges son, *barges... Now look up how good the Germans were at sinking ships with bombs at that date. As good or better than anyone. Nope. They had some real problems sinking anything. *They could hit some stuff standing still, *but at Dunkirk, bombing stationary ships, their performance was dreadful. You don't know what the Military Canal is do you? Mr. Black Well we had lakefront property on Lk Ontario, the Englosh Channel is what the girls liked to swim across too. The Military Canal is not the Channel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Military_Canal It's not getting into it, *it's getting out. You're getting a good demonstration of how resistant Canadian brick masonry is to logic, William. -- Andrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) Never underestimate the power of the EM's mess and the Club to circulate all of the material that is handled so carefully, out into the civilian access area. Corporals make flight schedules and arrange meetings and sometimes are given the minutes of the previous meeting and the outline of the next. Not really classified, above your office level, but informative to one who hears things in the office to fill in the gaps. |
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 05:36:15 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
wrote: It was just a little wider river crossing, no need for special ships. Peter Fleming mentions the use of railroad ferries to bring the tanks, other methods like "Dr. Feder-type concrete barges" and Krupp's "Lendkreuzer". Lubber's thinking. "Another unlikely project was a proposal by Gottfried Feder, a Nazi official who was a civil engineer by training, to create what he called a "war crocodile" for use in the anticipated invasion of England. Feder's brainchild, as described in Ronald Wheatley's 1958 book Operation Sea Lion: German Plans for the Invasion of England, 1939-1942, was a an immense amphibious blockhouse of ungainly proportions - 90 feet long, 20 feet wide, and 12 feet high-made of concrete, which could move across the water under its own power and then crawl ashore on caterpillar tracks to disgorge either 200 soldiers or tanks and artillery. The German Naval Ordinance Office had serious doubts about whether the crocodile's slender concrete body would withstand the vibration of an engine powerful enough to move it, but nevertheless, according to William Shirer's 1960 book The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, the crocodile actually was discussed at length by Hitler himself before being discarded. German arms maker Krupp dreamed up another immense vehicle, the Landkreuzer P. 1500 Monster, by placing an 800 mm Dora artillery cannon-the sort normally towed on a railway car-atop a giant tank chassis powered by two to four U-Boat engines. The Monster, as described in My Tank is Fight! Zack Parsons', Mike Doscher's, and Josh Hass' 2006 book on improbable World War II weapons, would have weighed in at 2,500 metric tons, served by a crew of 100, and plodded along the battlefield at six to nine miles an hour-making it a pathetically easy target for Allied aircraft. Albert Speer, the Nazi minister for armaments and war production, worried that the Monster's sheer size would appeal to Hitler, and reportedly forbade Krupp to build a prototype." http://naziscienceliveson.devhub.com/blog/2009/06/ Tell me again about how they were going to build these devices, get them into position, move them accross the water, and then support the troops they had in them? All without opposition? |
#303
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Mar 20, 4:03*pm, Bill Kambic wrote:
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 05:36:15 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum wrote: It was just a little wider river crossing, no need for special ships. Peter Fleming mentions the use of railroad ferries to bring the tanks, other methods like "Dr. Feder-type concrete barges" and Krupp's "Lendkreuzer". Lubber's thinking. "Another unlikely project was a proposal by Gottfried Feder, a Nazi official who was a civil engineer by training, to create what he called a "war crocodile" for use in the anticipated invasion of England. Feder's brainchild, as described in Ronald Wheatley's 1958 book Operation Sea Lion: German Plans for the Invasion of England, 1939-1942, was a an immense amphibious blockhouse of ungainly proportions - 90 feet long, 20 feet wide, and 12 feet high-made of concrete, which could move across the water under its own power and then crawl ashore on caterpillar tracks to disgorge either 200 soldiers or tanks and artillery. The German Naval Ordinance Office had serious doubts about whether the crocodile's slender concrete body would withstand the vibration of an engine powerful enough to move it, but nevertheless, according to William Shirer's 1960 book The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, the crocodile actually was discussed at length by Hitler himself before being discarded. German arms maker Krupp dreamed up another immense vehicle, the Landkreuzer P. 1500 Monster, by placing an 800 mm Dora artillery cannon-the sort normally towed on a railway car-atop a giant tank chassis powered by two to four U-Boat engines. The Monster, as described in My Tank is Fight! Zack Parsons', Mike Doscher's, and Josh Hass' 2006 book on improbable World War II weapons, would have weighed in at 2,500 metric tons, served by a crew of 100, and plodded along the battlefield at six to nine miles an hour-making it a pathetically easy target for Allied aircraft. Albert Speer, the Nazi minister for armaments and war production, worried that the Monster's sheer size would appeal to Hitler, and reportedly forbade Krupp to build a prototype." http://naziscienceliveson.devhub.com/blog/2009/06/ Tell me again about how they were going to build these devices, get them into position, move them accross the water, and then support the troops they had in them? *All without opposition? I think we are missing the point. There never was going to be a German invasion if they did not continue on from Dunkirk right across the channel and land as many men as they could get across. A sort of reverse of Dynamo, although that doesn't sound too good either. It probably wouldn't have been a success but it might have stirred the British Parliament into some sort of truce or armistice. |
#304
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
Jack Linthicum wrote:
Never underestimate the power of the EM's mess and the Club to circulate all of the material that is handled so carefully, out into the civilian access area. Corporals make flight schedules and arrange meetings and sometimes are given the minutes of the previous meeting and the outline of the next. Not really classified, above your office level, but informative to one who hears things in the office to fill in the gaps. This guy is supposed to know EVERYTHING. Including how the UK didn't have a chance... -- William Black "Any number under six" The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff. |
#305
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 18:15:10 +0000, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote: In message , William Black writes Alexander wrote: That has already been answered. Move on. Well, no it hasn't. How do you defeat the Royal Navy? Magic pixies with ship destroying oofle dust? The Germans have a plan. Their chief weapon is a cunning plan...a cunning plan and cool uniforms...cunning plan and shiny jackboots.... Their two weapons are a cunning plan and their nifty uniforms...and their ruthless Teutonic efficiency.... Their *three* weapons are a cunning plan, cool uniforms, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Fuhrer.... their *four*...no... *Amongst* their weapons.... Amongst their weaponry...are such elements as cunning plans, smart uniforms.... I'll come in again? I thought Monty was a British general. Peter Skelton |
#306
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
Peter Skelton wrote:
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 18:15:10 +0000, "Paul J. Adam" wrote: In message , William Black writes Alexander wrote: That has already been answered. Move on. Well, no it hasn't. How do you defeat the Royal Navy? Magic pixies with ship destroying oofle dust? The Germans have a plan. Their chief weapon is a cunning plan...a cunning plan and cool uniforms...cunning plan and shiny jackboots.... Their two weapons are a cunning plan and their nifty uniforms...and their ruthless Teutonic efficiency.... Their *three* weapons are a cunning plan, cool uniforms, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Fuhrer.... their *four*...no... *Amongst* their weapons.... Amongst their weaponry...are such elements as cunning plans, smart uniforms.... I'll come in again? I thought Monty was a British general. Peter Skelton Monty thought so too. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired |
#307
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Mar 20, 12:04 pm, William Black
wrote: Ken S. Tucker wrote: On Mar 20, 10:21 am, William Black wrote: It's not an acronym, it's a code word. Well I missed that memo. You're not kidding. It's a habit, learning to not read unimportant junk, you know. After 2-3 years he wrote a stack of reports that would fill a filing cabinet, probably still classified. Oh no they won't be. In canuckistan it's secret or once declassified it's burned, didn't you get the memo. ********. It's filed away and released when of no interest to anyone but historians. Nope, contrary to what Mr. Chaplin reports, it's burn after reading. only the low level crap is available for his daddy, thoughts clear. He don't know spooks, I'll provide a hint, from this link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_X "Records pertaining to Camp X were either locked away under the Official Secrets Act or destroyed after World War II." "locked away" or "destroyed", what does that mean? Many commanders in chief weren't given ULTRA access. Old Boy told me he was a corporal, So he didn't actually have any access at all. I presume said personel were ordered to provide full cooperation, so he wouldn't need to give a rat's ass about ULTRA, except how effective it was, to feedback into the chain of command, his duties in that respect were more than clerical. You mean he was an intelligence clerk. That's close but not quite, he had girl's, booze and cigs to relax the men in order to report what they learned RCAF trained him for a year in Pathfinder Navigation prior to making him a de-briefer Not a chance. Aircrew were all promoted to sergeant on selection. Why would ya need to be sergeant for de-briefing? Ya don't understood the de-briefer rank. , and navigation involves a lot of secret stuff, so he likely ended up knowing more about ULTRA than ULTRA did, Take it from me, anyone selected for aircrew training wouldn't have been allowed within a mile of ULTRA where results are concerned, and then write a synopsis for strategists, based on de-briefing from fielded and experienced personel. Corporals don't. Well I guess them guys choose Corporal rank as it is a confidential, nobody would tell an a officer squat, cuz they will rat ya out, whereas a Corporal won't, SOP. Barges are ultra cheap, especially when they're empty. And so easy to sink, especially at night. But look at what you're risking, to sink a cheap barge. Barges son, barges... Now look up how good the Germans were at sinking ships with bombs at that date. As good or better than anyone. Nope. They had some real problems sinking anything. They could hit some stuff standing still, but at Dunkirk, bombing stationary ships, their performance was dreadful. Well the Nazi's didn't expect the Brit's to run away so fast, so they weren't prepared for that contingency, is that what you mean? You don't know what the Military Canal is do you? Mr. Black Well we had lakefront property on Lk Ontario, the Englosh Channel is what the girls liked to swim across too. The Military Canal is not the Channel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Military_Canal It's not getting into it, it's getting out. Mr. Black Yup. Ken |
#308
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Mar 20, 5:53*pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
On Mar 20, 12:04 pm, William Black wrote: Ken S. Tucker wrote: On Mar 20, 10:21 am, William Black wrote: It's not an acronym, *it's a code word. Well I missed that memo. You're not kidding. It's a habit, learning to not read unimportant junk, you know. After 2-3 years he wrote a stack of reports that would fill a filing cabinet, probably still classified. Oh no they won't be. In canuckistan it's secret or once declassified it's burned, didn't you get the memo. ********. It's filed away and released when of no interest to anyone but historians. Nope, contrary to what Mr. Chaplin reports, it's burn after reading. only the low level crap is available for his daddy, thoughts clear. He don't know spooks, I'll provide a hint, from this link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_X "Records pertaining to Camp X were either locked away under the Official Secrets Act or destroyed after World War II." "locked away" or "destroyed", what does that mean? Many commanders in chief weren't given ULTRA access. Old Boy told me he was a corporal, So he didn't actually have any access at all. I presume said personel were ordered to provide full cooperation, so he wouldn't need to give a rat's ass about ULTRA, except how effective it was, to feedback into the chain of command, his duties in that respect were more than clerical. You mean he was an intelligence clerk. That's close but not quite, he had girl's, booze and cigs to relax the men in order to report what they learned RCAF trained him for a year in Pathfinder Navigation prior to making him a de-briefer Not a chance. Aircrew were all promoted to sergeant on selection. Why would ya need to be sergeant for de-briefing? Ya don't understood the de-briefer rank. , and navigation involves a lot of secret stuff, so he likely ended up knowing more about ULTRA than ULTRA did, Take it from me, *anyone selected for aircrew training wouldn't have been allowed within a mile of ULTRA * where results are concerned, and then write a synopsis for strategists, based on de-briefing from fielded and experienced personel. Corporals don't. Well I guess them guys choose Corporal rank as it is a confidential, nobody would tell an a officer squat, cuz they will rat ya out, whereas a Corporal won't, SOP. Barges are ultra cheap, especially when they're empty. And so easy to sink, *especially at night. But look at what you're risking, to sink a cheap barge. Barges son, *barges... Now look up how good the Germans were at sinking ships with bombs at that date. As good or better than anyone. Nope. They had some real problems sinking anything. *They could hit some stuff standing still, *but at Dunkirk, bombing stationary ships, their performance was dreadful. Well the Nazi's didn't expect the Brit's to run away so fast, so they weren't prepared for that contingency, is that what you mean? You don't know what the Military Canal is do you? Mr. Black Well we had lakefront property on Lk Ontario, the Englosh Channel is what the girls liked to swim across too. The Military Canal is not the Channel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Military_Canal It's not getting into it, *it's getting out. Mr. Black Yup. Ken It's "burn before reading" for the important stuff |
#309
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On Mar 20, 5:53 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote: On Mar 20, 12:04 pm, William Black wrote: Ken S. Tucker wrote: On Mar 20, 10:21 am, William Black wrote: It's not an acronym, it's a code word. Well I missed that memo. You're not kidding. It's a habit, learning to not read unimportant junk, you know. After 2-3 years he wrote a stack of reports that would fill a filing cabinet, probably still classified. Oh no they won't be. In canuckistan it's secret or once declassified it's burned, didn't you get the memo. ********. It's filed away and released when of no interest to anyone but historians. Nope, contrary to what Mr. Chaplin reports, it's burn after reading. only the low level crap is available for his daddy, thoughts clear. He don't know spooks, I'll provide a hint, from this link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_X "Records pertaining to Camp X were either locked away under the Official Secrets Act or destroyed after World War II." "locked away" or "destroyed", what does that mean? Many commanders in chief weren't given ULTRA access. Old Boy told me he was a corporal, So he didn't actually have any access at all. I presume said personel were ordered to provide full cooperation, so he wouldn't need to give a rat's ass about ULTRA, except how effective it was, to feedback into the chain of command, his duties in that respect were more than clerical. You mean he was an intelligence clerk. That's close but not quite, he had girl's, booze and cigs to relax the men in order to report what they learned RCAF trained him for a year in Pathfinder Navigation prior to making him a de-briefer Not a chance. Aircrew were all promoted to sergeant on selection. Why would ya need to be sergeant for de-briefing? Ya don't understood the de-briefer rank. , and navigation involves a lot of secret stuff, so he likely ended up knowing more about ULTRA than ULTRA did, Take it from me, anyone selected for aircrew training wouldn't have been allowed within a mile of ULTRA where results are concerned, and then write a synopsis for strategists, based on de-briefing from fielded and experienced personel. Corporals don't. Well I guess them guys choose Corporal rank as it is a confidential, nobody would tell an a officer squat, cuz they will rat ya out, whereas a Corporal won't, SOP. Barges are ultra cheap, especially when they're empty. And so easy to sink, especially at night. But look at what you're risking, to sink a cheap barge. Barges son, barges... Now look up how good the Germans were at sinking ships with bombs at that date. As good or better than anyone. Nope. They had some real problems sinking anything. They could hit some stuff standing still, but at Dunkirk, bombing stationary ships, their performance was dreadful. Well the Nazi's didn't expect the Brit's to run away so fast, so they weren't prepared for that contingency, is that what you mean? You don't know what the Military Canal is do you? Mr. Black Well we had lakefront property on Lk Ontario, the Englosh Channel is what the girls liked to swim across too. The Military Canal is not the Channel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Military_Canal It's not getting into it, it's getting out. Mr. Black Yup. Ken It's "burn before reading" for the important stuff The whole 'Camp X' and 'William Stephenson' pages on Wikipedia are full of ghastly errors. Stuff like Churchill being an opposition MP in 1936 and SOE being part of MI-6. It reads like a bad novel. -- William Black "Any number under six" The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff. |
#310
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 20, 12:04 pm, William Black wrote: snip RCAF trained him for a year in Pathfinder Navigation prior to making him a de-briefer Not a chance. Aircrew were all promoted to sergeant on selection. Why would ya need to be sergeant for de-briefing? Ya don't understood the de-briefer rank. Do try to read for comprehension. If he had been accepted for pathfinder navigation he would have been promoted to sergeant. If he had then been sent back to ground ops as a corporal he must have been washed out of school. As to why you'd want a sergeant rather than corporal for debriefing let me give you a modern analogy in the USAF. Debriefing air crews, while supposed to be done by checklist, required experience on the part of the debrief personnel. The USAF prefers 7 levels (think technician) which requires the rank of staff sergeant (E-5). There's no such thing as an E-4 7 level. Does this mean they don't use 5 levels to debrief? No, but they aren't about to assign those with limited experience. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired |
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