Seaplane Resurgence?

"TMOliver" wrote:

The awful truth....

Them dannable Tscherman N*zis and the Hirohito's aggressive pursuit of the
East Asian Coprosperity Sphere sealed the doom of the flying boat and sea
plane by causing we Merkins to pave or at worst lay steel mat over the
majority of the Western World's (and some Eastern's too) long flat places.
When there were runways everywhere, planes that floated were relegated to
niche market status, quaint curiosites in the midst of a dynamic world.


Slightly off-topic. When my brother-in-law (then to be) immigrated
out here in 1952 it was a 5 day odyssey aboard a flying boat which
stopped at all sorts of interesting places along the way. They landed
on Lake Victoria in the late afternoon and had to leave very early in
the morning because the heat would rob the engines of the required
power to lift off. They finally ended up on the Vaal dam just south
of Johannesburg. Must have been close to the swansong of the Empire
flying boat service. In-flight movie was sliding back your window and
watching the herds of animals as you flew over them at a couple of
thousand feet.

Way back in 1960 I was privileged to watch a French squadron, 27F
Flotille, using Martin Marlin flyingboats operating out of the lagoon
next to my home. They had flown from Dakar to Langebaan non-stop some
3600 nautical miles which was considered excellent for that time. On
their return they used JATO - the first time it was ever used in South
Africa - to get airborne. Also doing so at first light and using an
enormous run of 5 to 6km run to get airborne. One of the boats
suffered a JATO bottle explosion which ripped a substantial hole in
her side. It was slipped at Langebaan using the gear from the
Sunderland squadron that used to operate there (and which was still in
storage there) and a borrowed tractor to get her up the slipway.

Eugene L Griessel

Old age is when you find yourself using one bend-over
to pick up two things.

- I usually post only from Sci.Military.Naval -

On Mon, 1 Oct 2007 18:51:14 -0500, "TMOliver"
wrote:

The awful truth....

Them dannable Tscherman N*zis and the Hirohito's aggressive pursuit of the
East Asian Coprosperity Sphere sealed the doom of the flying boat and sea
plane by causing we Merkins to pave or at worst lay steel mat over the
majority of the Western World's (and some Eastern's too) long flat places.
When there were runways everywhere, planes that floated were relegated to
niche market status, quaint curiosites in the midst of a dynamic world.

Yup, what he said.

Floatplanes are romantic as all get out, but lack economic
practicality.

Maybe someday somebody will figure out how to make money on them the
way some folks make big cruise ships pay. Until then they are just a
chapter in Naval Aviation (and aviation) history.

On Sep 30, 7:06 pm, "Mike Kanze" wrote:
John Keeney,

I don't disagree with your conclusion, I just think your grasp of the water situation in the heartland is off.

Having lived several years in Cincinnati (on the Ohio River, upriver ~100 miles from Louisville) I have a better
grasp than you might think about this.

If your experince is limited to the Cincinnati area, I can certainly
understand it. The river is but a trickle of what you'll find behind
the McAlpin dam at Louisville.
The two cities are seaperated by a bit over 100 *air* miles but that
is one hell of a drainage.

There's not been a seaplane built that couldn't land and depart comfortably from the Ohio River at Louisville Ky.

There is no section of the Ohio River flowing past Louisville that is at all aligned with the prevailing winds (roughly
NW - SE) in that part of the U.S. Landing a heavily-laden flying boat in such conditions would not be advisable.

The pool behind the dam at Louisville is over a mile wide (within a
few miles, very much so) and can be sighted down from mid river for
over a half dozen miles. A very gentle bend gets you nearly twice that
many more.
Prevailing winds out on the water are within 10-20 degrees of straight
up that first stretch. This may be related to the Indiana bank being
high enough to shield it.

Like our land roadways, our riverine waterways are very congested with all manner of craft. Let's start with large,
multi-barge river tows, and along the way mention such frequent or recurring obstacles as bridges, locks and
dams, seasonal water level fluctuations, snags, and especially flotsam - not to mention the all-too-frequent
weekend drunk on his jetski, darting unpredictably about the channel.

You will recall I did not dispute your conclusion.
But large tolls rarely are within several miles of each other (the
time it takes to lock through at the dam prevents it). And bridges
over the Ohio cluster at major cities: three car & three railway
bridges at Louisville, the next closest bridge up-stream is about 35
miles away at Madison. Down-stream, call it 30 miles.
Dams, baa, how many dams do you think are between Louisville an
Cincinnati? I believe the correct number is 1.

Our major rivers either ice over regularly (upper Midwest) or can have ice floes during winter cold snaps at least
as far south as the Mississippi - Ohio junction. (I have personally seen folks walk, foolishly, across the Ohio
River on winter ice.)

I can remember one (1) year that there was ice on the river here
sufficent to tempt people to walk upon it. It is even considered
enough of a novelty for flow ice to be coming down stream big enough
to find to hop in the car to go get a look.

So reliable scheduling of commercial seaplane air cargo during part of the year is not an
option from Cairo, Illinois north and east. Thunderstorms, which occur at other times of the year, generate major
flotsam debris.

*A* storm has a trivial effect on the river here. To put flotsam in
the water you dump a lot of rain on the water shed up stream to raise
the river level. The river will then creast a few days later here
carring trash in.

River tows are impervious to all but the largest flotsam, and smaller craft can see and avoid. Not
so a seaplane that has just alighted.

I admit it would be a problem. One of the reasons I agreed with your
conclusion.

The very biggest reason sea planes won't make a come back is existing
airports support more efficent land planes. Ignoring some island out
in the ocean with insufficent land area for the airfield, there simply
is no justification for regular scheduled seaplane service.

On Sep 30, 9:43 pm, Eunometic wrote:
On Sep 30, 1:01 pm, "Mike Kanze" wrote:

Longer answer: Attempts at large-scale revival of seaplanes in the U.S. will likely meet the same ends as
attempts to revive LTA.
a.. Too few suitable seadrome possibilities near most U. S. coastal population centers. And no possibilities
at all in the continental heartland, other than the Great Lakes cities like Detroit or Chicago.

I would raise two counter arguments to this:
a/ The Sea planes could be made 'amphibious' in that case they can
operate on airports, perhaps only those with 11000ft runways, and they
could then use seaplane ports in locations where a 11000ft runway
would be prohibitive due to cost or geography.

The seaplane hull has never been as aerodynamic as a land planes: it's
less efficent. Now you want to go ahead and add landing gear too? More
weight. Now even fewer miles per ton of fuel.

b/ Oversize seaplanes could opperate in a niche all by themselves
competing for coastal cargo.

Possibly, but don't waste effort making them amphibs.

c.. Need for major infrastructure improvements (large hangars, ramps, etc.) along increasingly expensive /
scarce near-urban .shoreline.

Quite serious: floating concrete structures?

Good enough for docks. But it's like hydrogen fueled cars: which do
you build first; the millions of hydrogen fueling stations or the
millions of hydrogen powered cars? If socity hadn't gone done a
different econmic track doing both at once might have been worth while
but substitues do exist and it's hard to justify the investment for
another way of doing the same thing.

On Oct 1, 8:32 pm, (Eugene Griessel) wrote:
"TMOliver" wrote:
The awful truth....

Them dannable Tscherman N*zis and the Hirohito's aggressive pursuit of the
East Asian Coprosperity Sphere sealed the doom of the flying boat and sea
plane by causing we Merkins to pave or at worst lay steel mat over the
majority of the Western World's (and some Eastern's too) long flat places.
When there were runways everywhere, planes that floated were relegated to
niche market status, quaint curiosites in the midst of a dynamic world.

Slightly off-topic. When my brother-in-law (then to be) immigrated
out here in 1952 it was a 5 day odyssey aboard a flying boat which
stopped at all sorts of interesting places along the way. They landed
on Lake Victoria in the late afternoon and had to leave very early in
the morning because the heat would rob the engines of the required
power to lift off. They finally ended up on the Vaal dam just south
of Johannesburg. Must have been close to the swansong of the Empire
flying boat service. In-flight movie was sliding back your window and
watching the herds of animals as you flew over them at a couple of
thousand feet.

Way back in 1960 I was privileged to watch a French squadron, 27F
Flotille, using Martin Marlin flyingboats operating out of the lagoon
next to my home. They had flown from Dakar to Langebaan non-stop some
3600 nautical miles which was considered excellent for that time. On
their return they used JATO - the first time it was ever used in South
Africa - to get airborne. Also doing so at first light and using an
enormous run of 5 to 6km run to get airborne. One of the boats
suffered a JATO bottle explosion which ripped a substantial hole in
her side. It was slipped at Langebaan using the gear from the
Sunderland squadron that used to operate there (and which was still in
storage there) and a borrowed tractor to get her up the slipway.

Eugene L Griessel

Old age is when you find yourself using one bend-over
to pick up two things.

- I usually post only from Sci.Military.Naval -

My college roommate was from South Africa and his description of his
flight on a Comet in 1954 or so read like a comedy routine. Up in the
air, down to refuel; up in the, air down to refuel, etc.

Bill Kambic wrote:
On Mon, 1 Oct 2007 18:51:14 -0500, "TMOliver"
wrote:

The awful truth....

Them dannable Tscherman N*zis and the Hirohito's aggressive pursuit of the
East Asian Coprosperity Sphere sealed the doom of the flying boat and sea
plane by causing we Merkins to pave or at worst lay steel mat over the
majority of the Western World's (and some Eastern's too) long flat places.
When there were runways everywhere, planes that floated were relegated to
niche market status, quaint curiosites in the midst of a dynamic world.

Yup, what he said.

Floatplanes are romantic as all get out, but lack economic
practicality.

Maybe someday somebody will figure out how to make money on them the
way some folks make big cruise ships pay. Until then they are just a
chapter in Naval Aviation (and aviation) history.

I know it's a niche market, but there are at least two companies flying
otter and twin otter float planes between Victoria and Vancouver in BC
(as well as a few other destinations in the area). The geography of
those two cities is such that the seaplanes can provide a downtown -
downtown service with a short journey time, indeed in less time than it
would take to drive to the airport. They seem to cope quite well with
the other traffic in the harbours.

Robin

On Oct 2, 12:04 pm, "TMOliver" wrote:
I note that the poor deluded and apparently deranged woman who died -
strangled in an attempt to get out of the irons - while cuffed and shackled
at Sky Harbor, the Phoenix Airport, was the daughter of a retired SA Navy
CDR. The story has played mightily here in the US, drawing response from
the two predictable positions, the usual tearful hand-wringers blaming the
cops or the TSA (a bit off, since the TSA apparently weren't ever involved),
and the "just desserts" crowd, which in this case seem likely to be correct
in their view.

Throwing a fit, especially over being denied boarding because the door was
closed - a routine and to be expected inconvnience these days - is bad
enough, but throwing one which requires the gendarmes to put you in
restraints (implying an ongoing failure of rationality) seems evidence of
deper problems....

Apparently, she was on her way to an alcohol rehab center in Tucson. Sad,
since were she not so purposeful in her intent to beat booze, she could have
simply gone in the bar, had a few belts, and simply felt depressed, not
antagonistic.

TMO

Her inlaws were also very important people. It is like the old
mysteries where the lord is killed in a closed room. You wait for the
autopsy, and assume the police handled it well and if they didn't,
there are no surveillance cameras or eye witnesses. The family lawyer
was in the Keating case. Deep draft.

"Police spokesman Sgt. Andy Hill said officers placed Gotbaum in a
room without a surveillance camera. After about five to 10 minutes,
officers no longer could hear her voice and went to check. Gotbaum was
found unconscious with her hands "pressed against her neck area," Hill
said.

In a statement released Monday, Hill said Gotbaum had been shackled to
a bench as well as being handcuffed. The shackle's chain ran from an
eyehook and the other was connected to the chain on Gotbaum's
handcuffs."

Jack Linthicum wrote:

On Oct 1, 8:32 pm, (Eugene Griessel) wrote:
"TMOliver" wrote:
The awful truth....

Them dannable Tscherman N*zis and the Hirohito's aggressive pursuit of the
East Asian Coprosperity Sphere sealed the doom of the flying boat and sea
plane by causing we Merkins to pave or at worst lay steel mat over the
majority of the Western World's (and some Eastern's too) long flat places.
When there were runways everywhere, planes that floated were relegated to
niche market status, quaint curiosites in the midst of a dynamic world.

Slightly off-topic. When my brother-in-law (then to be) immigrated
out here in 1952 it was a 5 day odyssey aboard a flying boat which
stopped at all sorts of interesting places along the way. They landed
on Lake Victoria in the late afternoon and had to leave very early in
the morning because the heat would rob the engines of the required
power to lift off. They finally ended up on the Vaal dam just south
of Johannesburg. Must have been close to the swansong of the Empire
flying boat service. In-flight movie was sliding back your window and
watching the herds of animals as you flew over them at a couple of
thousand feet.

Way back in 1960 I was privileged to watch a French squadron, 27F
Flotille, using Martin Marlin flyingboats operating out of the lagoon
next to my home. They had flown from Dakar to Langebaan non-stop some
3600 nautical miles which was considered excellent for that time. On
their return they used JATO - the first time it was ever used in South
Africa - to get airborne. Also doing so at first light and using an
enormous run of 5 to 6km run to get airborne. One of the boats
suffered a JATO bottle explosion which ripped a substantial hole in
her side. It was slipped at Langebaan using the gear from the
Sunderland squadron that used to operate there (and which was still in
storage there) and a borrowed tractor to get her up the slipway.

Eugene L Griessel

Old age is when you find yourself using one bend-over
to pick up two things.

- I usually post only from Sci.Military.Naval -

My college roommate was from South Africa and his description of his
flight on a Comet in 1954 or so read like a comedy routine. Up in the
air, down to refuel; up in the, air down to refuel, etc.

Yes - the London to Johannesburg service was one of the very first
long distance jetliner services. I've just been reading a short
biography of one Don Parker, SAAF Spitfire pilot in WW2 and Mustang
and Sabre pilot in Korea. He was one of the first SAA pilots to
qualify on the Comet. The service was a joint BOAC-SAA venture. His
brief summation reads: "The Comet lacked power and was unable to carry
enough fuel for the long distances undertaken and it literally
puddle-jumped across seas and and African states. The tenacity and
skill of the senior captains who handled a potentially dangerous
situation with courage and fortitude had to be admired."


Eugene L Griessel

If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?

- I usually post only from Sci.Military.Naval -

TMOliver wrote:
I note that the poor deluded and apparently deranged woman who died -
strangled in an attempt to get out of the irons - while cuffed and shackled
at Sky Harbor, the Phoenix Airport, was the daughter of a retired SA Navy
CDR. The story has played mightily here in the US, drawing response from
the two predictable positions, the usual tearful hand-wringers blaming the
cops or the TSA (a bit off, since the TSA apparently weren't ever involved),
and the "just desserts" crowd, which in this case seem likely to be correct
in their view.

Throwing a fit, especially over being denied boarding because the door was
closed - a routine and to be expected inconvnience these days - is bad
enough, but throwing one which requires the gendarmes to put you in
restraints (implying an ongoing failure of rationality) seems evidence of
deper problems....

Apparently, she was on her way to an alcohol rehab center in Tucson. Sad,
since were she not so purposeful in her intent to beat booze, she could have
simply gone in the bar, had a few belts, and simply felt depressed, not
antagonistic.

TMO



We train police to never leave a handcuffed person unattended
Epileptic seizures and similar events have killed handcuffed people

From an arizona case on leaving a handcuffed person unattended

Second, they argued that theirfactual allegations and the inferences
that could be drawn from them stated a claim for gross negligence. They
included an affidavit from an expert witness on police practices and
procedures, who opined that Officer Congrove's actions constituted
gross negligence and that DPS was grossly negligent in providing a
patrol car that lacked security features routinely found in such
vehicles.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/...1/cv970475.txt

Vince

Jack Linthicum wrote:

On Oct 1, 8:32 pm, (Eugene Griessel) wrote:
"TMOliver" wrote:
The awful truth....

Them dannable Tscherman N*zis and the Hirohito's aggressive pursuit of the
East Asian Coprosperity Sphere sealed the doom of the flying boat and sea
plane by causing we Merkins to pave or at worst lay steel mat over the
majority of the Western World's (and some Eastern's too) long flat places.
When there were runways everywhere, planes that floated were relegated to
niche market status, quaint curiosites in the midst of a dynamic world.

Slightly off-topic. When my brother-in-law (then to be) immigrated
out here in 1952 it was a 5 day odyssey aboard a flying boat which
stopped at all sorts of interesting places along the way. They landed
on Lake Victoria in the late afternoon and had to leave very early in
the morning because the heat would rob the engines of the required
power to lift off. They finally ended up on the Vaal dam just south
of Johannesburg. Must have been close to the swansong of the Empire
flying boat service. In-flight movie was sliding back your window and
watching the herds of animals as you flew over them at a couple of
thousand feet.

Way back in 1960 I was privileged to watch a French squadron, 27F
Flotille, using Martin Marlin flyingboats operating out of the lagoon
next to my home. They had flown from Dakar to Langebaan non-stop some
3600 nautical miles which was considered excellent for that time. On
their return they used JATO - the first time it was ever used in South
Africa - to get airborne. Also doing so at first light and using an
enormous run of 5 to 6km run to get airborne. One of the boats
suffered a JATO bottle explosion which ripped a substantial hole in
her side. It was slipped at Langebaan using the gear from the
Sunderland squadron that used to operate there (and which was still in
storage there) and a borrowed tractor to get her up the slipway.

Eugene L Griessel

Old age is when you find yourself using one bend-over
to pick up two things.

- I usually post only from Sci.Military.Naval -

My college roommate was from South Africa and his description of his
flight on a Comet in 1954 or so read like a comedy routine. Up in the
air, down to refuel; up in the, air down to refuel, etc.

As an addendum - consider the luck of an SAA pilot, Doug Meaker,
he flew Comet Yoke Peter to London on the 5th January 1954. On the
10th it crashed near Elba due to catastrophic depressurisation due to
metal fatigue.
He was booked to fly a Comet on the the 8th April - but something came
up and he was given an earlier flight. Comet Yoke Yoke crashed south
of Naples .....
Must be fun to have the grim reaper breathing down one's neck like
that!

Eugene L Griessel

Communication - the art of transferring thought from one brain
to another successfully.

- I usually post only from Sci.Military.Naval -