A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Hanger Flying/ I learned from this experience



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old April 9th 15, 07:36 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,463
Default Hanger Flying/ I learned from this experience

In the war bird community we had hangar flying sessions where we talked about the emergencies we experienced and how we handled them. These were priceless sessions! I learned what other pilots did in situations I had never thought of. So here is my first post about something that taught me a lesson. Hopefully others will share their experiences too. This should be a judgment free thread for learning and sharing.

Here is something that taught me about flying. I had purchased a brand new Ventus 2C (I think it was 2000 or 2001). As part of the options I had the CG adjusted for pilot weight at the factory. When my shinny new glider arrived I was keen to get it in the air. My first big mistake was to trust the factory W&B! I had never flown an aircraft out of the CG range except once when a passenger lied to me about their weight (by 60 Lbs) while flying a helicopter. I ran out of aft stick on landing, not a big event on a paved runway. Anyway back to my story. My plan as always with a new (to me) glider was to take a high tow, do a few turns and stall or two, I was even planning on a spin. Well on tow I noticed my new glider (first and only time I purchased a new glider) was rather pitch sensitive, off tow, it was all I could do to keep it between 45 knots and 75 knots. Fortunately, the day was booming so staying up was not too difficult. I immediately abandoned my plan of some turns, stalls and maybe a spin. I thought the problem was with me as I had not been flying fixed wing aircraft much in the prior two years. I flew for four hours, got a bit better controlling the speed. I entered the pattern about 4,000 AGL and practised flying the pattern keeping my speed to within as small a speed deviation as I could. After landing I thought the problem was with me and possibly the brand as I had heard the first Ventus' were not known to be easy to fly. I thought nothing more than I need a bunch more time in this glider and never even mentioned my speed control problems to my fellow pilots as I was too embarassed. I put about 20 hours on that glider in two months and even had a few notable interesting XC flights. With time I got much better at the speed control (used to fly an all flying tail glider), but I never felt comfortable. Finally I confessed my experiences to another pilot and that I thought somehow I could not fly fixed wing aircraft anymore. Well, this pilot mentioned that it sounded like a CG problem. That had never occurred to me, nor did I have any experience in this area. Looked at the aircraft logbook again and had a W&B done. The logs and W&B calculations done by the factory showed I need 11 lbs of tail weight, the weight from the factory in the tail was 11 kilograms!!! I seem to remember NASA losing a Mars lander with JPL using metric calculations and NASA using English system

What did I learn: 1) Always perform a W&B on a glider that is new to you; 2) Never be shy about admitting your flying problems to fellow pilots; 3) do not plan to perform stalls and spins on the very first flight; 4) do not make excuses for the glider or how it is flying or how you are flying it, tell someone about it!

Maybe someone else could add a few comments about what they would have done and anything else I could learn from this. Also, share your own story so we might all learn.
  #2  
Old April 9th 15, 08:38 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Galloway[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 215
Default Hanger Flying/ I learned from this experience

At 06:36 09 April 2015, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
In the war bird community we had hangar flying sessions where we

talked
abo=
ut the emergencies we experienced and how we handled them.

These were
pric=
eless sessions! I learned what other pilots did in situations I had

never
=
thought of. So here is my first post about something that taught me

a
less=
on. Hopefully others will share their experiences too. This should

be a
ju=
dgment free thread for learning and sharing.

Here is something that taught me about flying. I had purchased a

brand
new=
Ventus 2C (I think it was 2000 or 2001). As part of the options I had
the=
CG adjusted for pilot weight at the factory. When my shinny new

glider
ar=
rived I was keen to get it in the air. My first big mistake was to trust
t=
he factory W&B! I had never flown an aircraft out of the CG range

except
o=
nce when a passenger lied to me about their weight (by 60 Lbs)

while
flying=
a helicopter. I ran out of aft stick on landing, not a big event on a
pav=
ed runway. Anyway back to my story. My plan as always with a

new (to nme)
=
glider was to take a high tow, do a few turns and stall or two, I was

even
=
planning on a spin. Well on tow I noticed my new glider (first and

only
ti=
me I purchased a new glider) was rather pitch sensitive, off tow, it

was
al=
l I could do to keep it between 45 knots and 75 knots. Fortunately,

the
da=
y was booming so staying up was not too difficult. I immediately
abandoned=
my plan of some turns, stalls and maybe a spin. I thought the

problem
was=
with me as I had not been flying fixed wing aircraft much in the

prior
two=
years. I flew for four hours, got a bit better controlling the speed.

I
=
entered the pattern about 4,000 AGL and practised flying the pattern
keepin=
g my speed to within as small a speed deviation as I could. After

landing
=
I thought the problem was with me and possibly the brand as I had

heard
the=
first Ventus' were not known to be easy to fly. I thought nothing

more
th=
an I need a bunch more time in this glider and never even

mentioned my
spee=
d control problems to my fellow pilots as I was too embarassed. I

put
abou=
t 20 hours on that glider in two months and even had a few notable
interest=
ing XC flights. With time I got much better at the speed control

(used to
=
fly an all flying tail glider), but I never felt comfortable. Finally I
co=
nfessed my experiences to another pilot and that I thought

somehow I could
=
not fly fixed wing aircraft anymore. Well, this pilot mentioned that it
so=
unded like a CG problem. That had never occurred to me, nor did I

have
any=
experience in this area. Looked at the aircraft logbook again and

had a
W=
&B done. The logs and W&B calculations done by the factory

showed I need
1=
1 lbs of tail weight, the weight from the factory in the tail was 11
kilogr=
ams!!! I seem to remember NASA losing a Mars lander with JPL

using metric
=
calculations and NASA using English system

What did I learn: 1) Always perform a W&B on a glider that is new to

you;
=
2) Never be shy about admitting your flying problems to fellow

pilots;
3)=
do not plan to perform stalls and spins on the very first flight; 4) do
no=
t make excuses for the glider or how it is flying or how you are flying
it,=
tell someone about it! =20

Maybe someone else could add a few comments about what they

would have
done=
and anything else I could learn from this. Also, share your own

story
so=
we might all learn.


I completely agree about thoroughly checking out brand new gliders.
My experiences a

One delivered with a blocked tail tank dump valve and 2 litres of
water in the tail tank.

One with a tailplane rigging knob that was inside the fin at the base
of the rudder by the starboard rudder control horn and interfering
with full right rudder deflection.

One with the TE tube disconnected from the fitting in the fin which
required a hole to be cut in the fin to fix.



  #3  
Old April 9th 15, 09:24 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,224
Default Hanger Flying/ I learned from this experience

On Wed, 08 Apr 2015 23:36:11 -0700, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

Maybe someone else could add a few comments about what they would have
done and anything else I could learn from this. Also, share your own
story so we might all learn.

Me again.

When I bought my Libelle the club insisted that we weigh it before I flew
it: probably just as well, as the CG was pretty much smack on the rear
limit.

Closer inspection (taking the rudder off) found 800g of lead sheet bolted
to the fin post and with every sign of having been there for some time:
there was some paint overspray on the lead and the logbook showed that
the last work done on the rear fuselage was prior to the glider being
laid up for a year or two. After that it had its 3000 hour inspection and
was then flown for a year by its previous owner. I took the lead out. A
re-weighing then showed the CG to be in the middle of the permitted
range. A routine re-weighing last year (7 year check) showed the CG is
still in the middle of the range.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
  #4  
Old April 9th 15, 09:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Z Goudie[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 35
Default Hanger Flying/ I learned from this experience

And one that had a weld fail on one air brake control rod when I shut the
brakes before it's first flight after delivery! Could have been an
interesting winch launch.

I had every control rod out and in a fabrication shop X ray booth the next
day. It was the only bad one.

At 07:38 09 April 2015, John Galloway wrote:
At 06:36 09 April 2015, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
In the war bird community we had hangar flying sessions where we

talked
abo=
ut the emergencies we experienced and how we handled them.

These were
pric=
eless sessions! I learned what other pilots did in situations I had

never
=
thought of. So here is my first post about something that taught me

a
less=
on. Hopefully others will share their experiences too. This should

be a
ju=
dgment free thread for learning and sharing.

Here is something that taught me about flying. I had purchased a

brand
new=
Ventus 2C (I think it was 2000 or 2001). As part of the options I had
the=
CG adjusted for pilot weight at the factory. When my shinny new

glider
ar=
rived I was keen to get it in the air. My first big mistake was to

trust
t=
he factory W&B! I had never flown an aircraft out of the CG range

except
o=
nce when a passenger lied to me about their weight (by 60 Lbs)

while
flying=
a helicopter. I ran out of aft stick on landing, not a big event on a
pav=
ed runway. Anyway back to my story. My plan as always with a

new (to nme)
=
glider was to take a high tow, do a few turns and stall or two, I was

even
=
planning on a spin. Well on tow I noticed my new glider (first and

only
ti=
me I purchased a new glider) was rather pitch sensitive, off tow, it

was
al=
l I could do to keep it between 45 knots and 75 knots. Fortunately,

the
da=
y was booming so staying up was not too difficult. I immediately
abandoned=
my plan of some turns, stalls and maybe a spin. I thought the

problem
was=
with me as I had not been flying fixed wing aircraft much in the

prior
two=
years. I flew for four hours, got a bit better controlling the speed.

I
=
entered the pattern about 4,000 AGL and practised flying the pattern
keepin=
g my speed to within as small a speed deviation as I could. After

landing
=
I thought the problem was with me and possibly the brand as I had

heard
the=
first Ventus' were not known to be easy to fly. I thought nothing

more
th=
an I need a bunch more time in this glider and never even

mentioned my
spee=
d control problems to my fellow pilots as I was too embarassed. I

put
abou=
t 20 hours on that glider in two months and even had a few notable
interest=
ing XC flights. With time I got much better at the speed control

(used to
=
fly an all flying tail glider), but I never felt comfortable. Finally I
co=
nfessed my experiences to another pilot and that I thought

somehow I could
=
not fly fixed wing aircraft anymore. Well, this pilot mentioned that it
so=
unded like a CG problem. That had never occurred to me, nor did I

have
any=
experience in this area. Looked at the aircraft logbook again and

had a
W=
&B done. The logs and W&B calculations done by the factory

showed I need
1=
1 lbs of tail weight, the weight from the factory in the tail was 11
kilogr=
ams!!! I seem to remember NASA losing a Mars lander with JPL

using metric
=
calculations and NASA using English system

What did I learn: 1) Always perform a W&B on a glider that is new to

you;
=
2) Never be shy about admitting your flying problems to fellow

pilots;
3)=
do not plan to perform stalls and spins on the very first flight; 4) do
no=
t make excuses for the glider or how it is flying or how you are flying
it,=
tell someone about it! =20

Maybe someone else could add a few comments about what they

would have
done=
and anything else I could learn from this. Also, share your own

story
so=
we might all learn.


I completely agree about thoroughly checking out brand new gliders.
My experiences a

One delivered with a blocked tail tank dump valve and 2 litres of
water in the tail tank.

One with a tailplane rigging knob that was inside the fin at the base
of the rudder by the starboard rudder control horn and interfering
with full right rudder deflection.

One with the TE tube disconnected from the fitting in the fin which
required a hole to be cut in the fin to fix.





  #6  
Old April 9th 15, 03:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike the Strike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 952
Default Hanger Flying/ I learned from this experience

I had a similar experience with a 20 year-old ASW-20. The previous owner had installed lead weights in the tail and wings without any logbook notation and the weight and balance was far off (aft of permitted). On one of my first flights, I eased back into a thermal and suddenly found myself looking upwards at blue sky!

I always do a weight and balance on new ships now!

Mike

  #7  
Old April 9th 15, 04:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Steve Leonard[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,076
Default Hanger Flying/ I learned from this experience

On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 9:46:26 AM UTC-5, Mike the Strike wrote:
I had a similar experience with a 20 year-old ASW-20. The previous owner had installed lead weights in the tail and wings without any logbook notation and the weight and balance was far off (aft of permitted). On one of my first flights, I eased back into a thermal and suddenly found myself looking upwards at blue sky!

I always do a weight and balance on new ships now!

Mike


And even if you don't have a scale capable of the weight on the main, at least you can check the weight on the tail. If you look at W&B numbers, you can see that the weight on the main has a relatively small impact on the CG location. Being off on that weight by 20 or 30 lbs has a smaller effect on the CG than being off by 2 or 3 lbs on the tail weight. If the tail weight is close to what is recorded at the most recent W&B, odds are you can get a good handle on where your flight CG will be with you on board. If not, well, you better get a bigger scale to be able to check the whole plane!

Steve Leonard
  #8  
Old April 9th 15, 04:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,463
Default Hanger Flying/ I learned from this experience

How did you know the TE was disconnected? My first thought would be the vario does not work right, I would think it would be a process involving several flights and much frustration to find out the TE was disconnected?
  #9  
Old April 9th 15, 05:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,463
Default Hanger Flying/ I learned from this experience

Anyone have a detailed checklist or procedure they use to inspect a new (or new to you) glider? How do you check TE connection on the ground?
  #10  
Old April 9th 15, 06:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Papa3[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 753
Default Hanger Flying/ I learned from this experience

On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 12:10:17 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Anyone have a detailed checklist or procedure they use to inspect a new (or new to you) glider? How do you check TE connection on the ground?


The maintenance manuals from the bigger German Manufacturers all have very detailed annual and X,000 hour inspection checklists. That's probably a very good place to start. I used the checklists from LS (LS4 and LS8) every winter and always found at least a couple of things that needed adjusting or correction (minor corrosion, a loose fitting, etc.)
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New England USA flying experience Captain Steve Vijay Sout Piloting 2 July 27th 08 08:07 PM
I learned about flying from this, too... Ricky Piloting 166 February 17th 08 09:18 PM
I learned about flying from this Ricky Piloting 7 January 26th 08 06:50 PM
Weird Flying Experience Charles Talleyrand Piloting 4 May 9th 06 04:16 PM
First flying experience for young child Dave Piloting 19 September 11th 04 12:54 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.