Slip to landing on PPG practical test

I was required to do this in a Blanik L-23 for a BFR a few years back. I
picked a target point right at the threshold, held the slip as long as I
dared and watched a lot of airfield go by as I maintained 10-15 ft of
altitude. The float in ground effect was impressive. I tried flying mildly
cross-coordinated to increase drag. About 2/3 of the way down the field and
still at 5-8 ft, I decided to fly the ship onto the ground where I could
ground loop it, if necessary, to keep from hitting the fence and trees at
the end. Fortunately, the ground loop wasn't necessary.
I'm both glad to have had this experience and glad the requirement has been
removed.

Brent


"Roger Worden" wrote in message
om...
I'm preparing for my Private test, and in discussing it with the local FAA
examiner, he indicated that one item on the test is a landing with no drag
devices, using only a turning and forward slips. As he explained it, the
task in the PTS is to demonstrate the ability to land totally WITHOUT
airbrakes, to simulate a landing wherein the airbrakes have failed.

Throughout my training I've practiced many turning slips to FINAL APPROACH
(to lose altitude) without airbrakes, but I have always ended the slip and
landed normally by using the airbrakes. In fact, the PTS says "turning
slips
to LANDING, with and without the use of drag devices". (See the PTS task
below.) He said this landing does not have to be to a precise point.

R. TASK: SLIPS TO LANDING
REFERENCES: Soaring Flight Manual, Glider Flight Manual.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to forward, side, and
turning
slips to landing, with and without the use of drag devices.
2. Recognizes the situation where a slip should be used to land in a
desired
area.
3. Establishes a slip without the use of drag devices.
4. Maintains the desired ground track.
5. Maintains proper approach attitude.
6. Makes smooth, proper, and positive control applications during recovery
from the slip.
7. Touches down smoothly within the designated landing area.


Working through this with one of my instructors today (a very stable day
with absolutely no wind), we had a hard time getting our Blanik L13 to
descend steeply enough even with a complete, full-rudder slip. Even after
extending the downwind, widening the pattern, and slipping all the way
from
the base turn, through the base leg, in the final turn and most of the
final, we're still too high. We have to resort to using airbrakes or we
float the entire length of the field. It would seem that we would need to
extend the downwind extraordinarily, or as another instructor suggested,
start the pattern uncomfortably low. We already were entering the 45 at
700'
AGL instead of the usual 1000' .

So two questions, for CFIs or examiners or recent test-takers:

1. Is this the common interpretation of the task below? No drag devices,
all
the way to the ground?

2. Have you experienced/how would you deal with what seems to be a rather
low drag ratio even with a full-rudder slip?

This discussion--over whether it's more dangerous to practice
something inherently risky or to learn by doing it the first
time--reminds me of checking out as an instructor with a Northeastern
U.S. glider club when I was in graduate school there back in the
1970s. The check pilot had me box the wake in the Blanik and then
asked me to put some slack in the tow rope and take it out gently. I
pulled up a little and then dove slightly to loosen the rope, then
waited for the towplane to climb up while I yawed the glider.

"Now let's put a *lot* of slack in the rope. I'll do the first one."

I watched, fascinated, as the check pilot took us up well over the
towplane, then moved out to the side and dove down until the towrope
disappeared *behind* the glider. We were still aft of the towplane but
I could look out to the side and see the towrope extending past us as
far as I could see.

The proper recovery technique was to stay above and to the side of the
towplane so that as the slack began to come out and you saw the loop
going by you from back to front, you could dive and turn in to match
speeds. The check pilot did this and it actually worked!

I made a couple of tries, the second of which wasn't as bad as the
first. I was *really* happy, though, when it was over. Turns out this
was a standard practical test item required by the local Designated
Examiner (and also high-time glider pilot).

I wouldn't want to be held to it because I can't remember the details,
but I recall hearing years later about a bad accident in that same
area caused by the towrope getting fouled in the elevator or aileron
during such a maneuver.

Some RAS readers must be familiar with this. Is this maneuver still
done? Were there ever any accidents arising from it?

And what's today's thinking about the wisdom of this kind of training?

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"

This discussion--over whether it's more dangerous to practice
something inherently risky or to learn by doing it the first
time--reminds me of checking out as an instructor with a Northeastern
U.S. glider club when I was in graduate school there back in the
1970s. The check pilot had me box the wake in the Blanik and then
asked me to put some slack in the tow rope and take it out gently. I
pulled up a little and then dove slightly to loosen the rope, then
waited for the towplane to climb up while I yawed the glider.

"Now let's put a *lot* of slack in the rope. I'll do the first one."

I watched, fascinated, as the check pilot took us up well over the
towplane, then moved out to the side and dove down until the towrope
disappeared *behind* the glider. We were still aft of the towplane but
I could look out to the side and see the towrope extending past us as
far as I could see.

The proper recovery technique was to stay above and to the side of the
towplane so that as the slack began to come out and you saw the loop
going by you from back to front, you could dive and turn in to match
speeds. The check pilot did this and it actually worked!

I made a couple of tries, the second of which wasn't as bad as the
first. I was *really* happy, though, when it was over. Turns out this
was a standard practical test item required by the local Designated
Examiner (and also high-time glider pilot).

I wouldn't want to be held to it because I can't remember the details,
but I recall hearing years later about a bad accident in that same
area caused by the towrope getting fouled in the elevator or aileron
during such a maneuver.

Some RAS readers must be familiar with this. Is this maneuver still
done? Were there ever any accidents arising from it?

And what's today's thinking about the wisdom of this kind of training?

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"

There are certainly some things like low altitude spins that are better
approached by teaching spin avoidance. The risks of training are far higher
than any perceived benefit.

Slips to a landing are a slightly different situation IMHO. They are highly
effective and appropriate in low performance/high drag gliders. The problem
is that nowadays, most pilots quickly move to glass.

When a pilot graduates to high performance gliders, different techniques are
required. Landing a 50:1 glider in a small field is a situation where the
spoiler/speed brakes had just better work.

Just what are the chances of dive brake failure? Frozen shut? Very few
glider pilots fly in icing conditions. Forget to connect them? I'd rather
practice assembly checklists and PCC's. If the training is to slip to a
position where the approach can be continued with spoilers, what scenario is
that training for? (Other than the checkride)

There even may be a danger in teaching slips for controlling the approach to
landing. A pilot may subconsciously feel he has a slip available if the
spoilers don't quite do the job and habitually fly high patterns in a
slippery glider until one day he finds that there are really no options
beyond the use of spoilers and pattern adjustments.

Note that I'm not suggesting that slips be removed from the training
syllabus, just that perhaps they should not be taught as a landing aid.
Slips to a landing is just so...20th century.

Bill Daniels


"Chip Bearden" wrote in message
om...
This discussion--over whether it's more dangerous to practice
something inherently risky or to learn by doing it the first
time--reminds me of checking out as an instructor with a Northeastern
U.S. glider club when I was in graduate school there back in the
1970s. The check pilot had me box the wake in the Blanik and then
asked me to put some slack in the tow rope and take it out gently. I
pulled up a little and then dove slightly to loosen the rope, then
waited for the towplane to climb up while I yawed the glider.

"Now let's put a *lot* of slack in the rope. I'll do the first one."

I watched, fascinated, as the check pilot took us up well over the
towplane, then moved out to the side and dove down until the towrope
disappeared *behind* the glider. We were still aft of the towplane but
I could look out to the side and see the towrope extending past us as
far as I could see.

The proper recovery technique was to stay above and to the side of the
towplane so that as the slack began to come out and you saw the loop
going by you from back to front, you could dive and turn in to match
speeds. The check pilot did this and it actually worked!

I made a couple of tries, the second of which wasn't as bad as the
first. I was *really* happy, though, when it was over. Turns out this
was a standard practical test item required by the local Designated
Examiner (and also high-time glider pilot).

I wouldn't want to be held to it because I can't remember the details,
but I recall hearing years later about a bad accident in that same
area caused by the towrope getting fouled in the elevator or aileron
during such a maneuver.

Some RAS readers must be familiar with this. Is this maneuver still
done? Were there ever any accidents arising from it?

And what's today's thinking about the wisdom of this kind of training?

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"

What would you use the slips for if not altitude control
during landing?

Cross wind correction?

Tony V.
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING

At 19:00 01 November 2004, Chip Bearden wrote:
This discussion--over whether it's more dangerous to
practice
something inherently risky or to learn by doing it
the first
time--reminds me of checking out as an instructor with
a Northeastern
U.S. glider club when I was in graduate school there
back in the
1970s. The check pilot had me box the wake in the Blanik
and then
asked me to put some slack in the tow rope and take
it out gently. I
pulled up a little and then dove slightly to loosen
the rope, then
waited for the towplane to climb up while I yawed the
glider.

'Now let's put a *lot* of slack in the rope. I'll do
the first one.'

I watched, fascinated, as the check pilot took us up
well over the
towplane, then moved out to the side and dove down
until the towrope
disappeared *behind* the glider. We were still aft
of the towplane but
I could look out to the side and see the towrope extending
past us as
far as I could see.

The proper recovery technique was to stay above and
to the side of the
towplane so that as the slack began to come out and
you saw the loop
going by you from back to front, you could dive and
turn in to match
speeds. The check pilot did this and it actually worked!

I made a couple of tries, the second of which wasn't
as bad as the
first. I was *really* happy, though, when it was over.
Turns out this
was a standard practical test item required by the
local Designated
Examiner (and also high-time glider pilot).

I wouldn't want to be held to it because I can't remember
the details,
but I recall hearing years later about a bad accident
in that same
area caused by the towrope getting fouled in the elevator
or aileron
during such a maneuver.

Some RAS readers must be familiar with this. Is this
maneuver still
done? Were there ever any accidents arising from it?

And what's today's thinking about the wisdom of this
kind of training?

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 'JB'




As a student pilot about 3 years ago, I decided to
do a trial membership in a club. I had been flying
in a commercial operation. It was much less expensive,
although I did have to do work at the field as a member.


One of the club's oldest and most experienced instructors
took me up for the first time in their 2-33. We did
some slack rope recovery that scared the crap out of
me. I was used to some slack rope, but he went way
over the edge. Their was so much slack rope that we
were dangerously close to the tow plane and the rope
was hanging way down below us. I was able to recover
from the first exercise with some difficulty. He decided
to do it again, only closer to the tow plane.
Before I knew it, the rope was behind the wing and
I could hear it whizzing over the wing as I was yawed.
I reached for the release and pulled just as the rope
became taught. It snapped and released with 30 feet
of the rope hanging over the canopy.
The instructor said that we could keep on flying, as
there was no noticable damage to the 2-33.
After we landed, we got out and inspected the wing.
The last 1 1/2 feet of the left aileron was badly mangled
and the tow hook was bent sideways.
I felt terrible that I had damaged their 2-33 on my
first flight, but only until I received a phone call
from the president of the club, telling me that it
wasn't my fault and the instructor should never have
gotten me into that position. Needless to say, I never
flew there again and went back to the commercial operation.

That instructor is still there, but the tow pilots
finally realized how dangerous his slack rope recovery
techniques were and they started releasing the tow
plane when he got too close.
GORDY

Todd Pattist wrote:
BTW, I don't recall doing it in anything other than a
fairly draggy 2-33. You didn't want to have your nose
pointed at the towplane tail when the rope came tight so yaw
cushioned things, and it was a good idea to tell the

Hmmm. I don't follow this. If you yaw you'd be reducing
speed, ie. increasing the speed difference between tug
and glider producing a more violent jerk on the rope
when it came tight. The increased drag while yawing
would contribute to the same effect.
What am I missing ?
CV

On 1 Nov 2004 14:52:53 GMT, Nyal Williams
wrote:

Here's a radical idea for the ASW-12. Jettison the
canopy, on the theory that it will then fly as if dive
brakes were open. grin

As I recall hearing, the L/D was 28/1 with the drogue
deployed. Are there any still flying? Seems I recall
a concerted effort to remove them from the market in
order to save lives.

Afaik by now all 12's have been converted to the 20 flap system with
landing setting.

Sissies. evil grin


Honestly: I admire the boldness of the designer and the pilots to
design and fly a glider with an L/D of 50 and no landing flaps in
order to gain about one point of L/D.
Pretty big ego concerning one's flying skills I guess.





Bye
Andreas

Todd Pattist wrote:
"Bill Daniels" wrote:


Note that I'm not suggesting that slips be removed from the training
syllabus, just that perhaps they should not be taught as a landing aid.
Slips to a landing is just so...20th century.


What would you use the slips for if not altitude control
during landing? I'm amazed at a proposal to do away with
teaching the use of this valuable landing tool.

In 5000 hours of soaring, I've had the spoilers freeze shut once. A
brief shower shortly before towing off for what eventually turned into a
wave flight did the trick. I discovered them frozen at 4000' AGL while
descending at the end of the flight, but at 3000 AGL, they unfroze. I
had a tail chute, so a slip would not have been needed, even in this case.

Has anyone else had spoilers freeze shut without flying in clouds, were
it seems like you should be expecting it to happen?


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

I took my PPG practical a little over a week ago in a 2-33. Did a slip to
landing on final (5-6 kts crosswind) with dive-brakes as needed...but then
in a 2-33 a slip is like an anchor. Also did one in the air to track a
heading.



"Slick" wrote in message ...
I just took my exam a little over a year ago. All my examiner wanted was
for
me to use a full slip during either downwind, base , or final, not all
three. I did my slip on downwind and he was fine with it as long as I
kept
a normal decent and distance from the field. After I turned base I was
allowed to use spoilers. Of course, that was here in Ohio where I took my
exam.
"Roger Worden" wrote in message
om...
I'm preparing for my Private test, and in discussing it with the local
FAA
examiner, he indicated that one item on the test is a landing with no
drag
devices, using only a turning and forward slips. As he explained it, the
task in the PTS is to demonstrate the ability to land totally WITHOUT
airbrakes, to simulate a landing wherein the airbrakes have failed.

Throughout my training I've practiced many turning slips to FINAL
APPROACH
(to lose altitude) without airbrakes, but I have always ended the slip
and
landed normally by using the airbrakes. In fact, the PTS says "turning
slips
to LANDING, with and without the use of drag devices". (See the PTS task
below.) He said this landing does not have to be to a precise point.

R. TASK: SLIPS TO LANDING
REFERENCES: Soaring Flight Manual, Glider Flight Manual.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to forward, side, and
turning
slips to landing, with and without the use of drag devices.
2. Recognizes the situation where a slip should be used to land in a
desired
area.
3. Establishes a slip without the use of drag devices.
4. Maintains the desired ground track.
5. Maintains proper approach attitude.
6. Makes smooth, proper, and positive control applications during
recovery
from the slip.
7. Touches down smoothly within the designated landing area.


Working through this with one of my instructors today (a very stable day
with absolutely no wind), we had a hard time getting our Blanik L13 to
descend steeply enough even with a complete, full-rudder slip. Even after
extending the downwind, widening the pattern, and slipping all the way
from
the base turn, through the base leg, in the final turn and most of the
final, we're still too high. We have to resort to using airbrakes or we
float the entire length of the field. It would seem that we would need to
extend the downwind extraordinarily, or as another instructor suggested,
start the pattern uncomfortably low. We already were entering the 45 at
700'
AGL instead of the usual 1000' .

So two questions, for CFIs or examiners or recent test-takers:

1. Is this the common interpretation of the task below? No drag devices,
all
the way to the ground?

2. Have you experienced/how would you deal with what seems to be a rather
low drag ratio even with a full-rudder slip?






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