Cable break recovery spin entry... as previously discussed

What this exercise really does is demonstrate how angle of attack is
decoupled from attitude. It's unfortunate that the concept of pitch
control by reference to angle attack is only taught at a basic
theoretical level in most gliding instruction - undoubtedly due to the
lack of any angle of attack indicator on gliders! (unless you count the
pitot mast -mounted yaw string on a 2-33).

I really wish there was a simple, reliable and easy to read angle of
attack (AOA) gauge available for gliders, optimized for efficient
thermalling (no adjustment needed for water ballast or bank angle -
unlike airspeed) and safe pattern speeds (instant response to wind
gradient and shear; and again automatically adjusts for landing right
off tow while still full of water).

Then you could use this exercise to show how to drive the AOA way past
the stalling AOA while still appearing to be in a level "flying"
attitude.

Kirk

At 12:00 01 July 2005, wrote:
What this exercise really does is demonstrate how angle
of attack is
decoupled from attitude. It's unfortunate that the
concept of pitch
control by reference to angle attack is only taught
at a basic
theoretical level in most gliding instruction - undoubtedly
due to the
lack of any angle of attack indicator on gliders! (unless
you count the
pitot mast -mounted yaw string on a 2-33).

I really wish there was a simple, reliable and easy
to read angle of
attack (AOA) gauge available for gliders, optimized
for efficient
thermalling (no adjustment needed for water ballast
or bank angle -
unlike airspeed) and safe pattern speeds (instant response
to wind
gradient and shear; and again automatically adjusts
for landing right
off tow while still full of water).

Then you could use this exercise to show how to drive
the AOA way past
the stalling AOA while still appearing to be in a level
'flying'
attitude.

Kirk
What you really want, Kirt, is an F-4 with long wings.
What was the recovery, 8 to 10 units and don't look
outside?
JJ

wrote in message
oups.com...

I really wish there was a simple, reliable and easy to read angle of
attack (AOA) gauge available for gliders, optimized for efficient
thermalling (no adjustment needed for water ballast or bank angle -
unlike airspeed) and safe pattern speeds (instant response to wind
gradient and shear; and again automatically adjusts for landing right
off tow while still full of water).

Then you could use this exercise to show how to drive the AOA way past
the stalling AOA while still appearing to be in a level "flying"
attitude.

Kirk


I agree that an AoA indicator would be very useful in general and in winch
launch in particular.

A VERY cheap AoA indicator can be made with two red yarns taped to the sides
of the canopy as far forward and as low a possible yet where the pilot can
still see them. You need two yarns to insure that the pitch angle is not
affected by a yaw angle. Calibrate the yarns with a flight at best L/D, Min
Sink and stall. Those are the only AoA you are interested in.

The $99 Dynon AoA probe looks like it might work in gliders. It's just a
pitot probe with a 45 degree angled flat face below the pitot opening with a
pressure port in the middle of the flat face. Some clever electronics
convert the pressure differential into an AoA display. If you have a
flapped glider, the electronic smarts will need to know the flap position.
If the electronics have the correct AoA, then the best flap setting for that
AoA is also known and can be displayed too.

Bill Daniels

wrote in message
oups.com...
What this exercise really does is demonstrate how angle of attack is
decoupled from attitude. It's unfortunate that the concept of pitch
control by reference to angle attack is only taught at a basic
theoretical level in most gliding instruction - undoubtedly due to the
lack of any angle of attack indicator on gliders! (unless you count the
pitot mast -mounted yaw string on a 2-33).

I really wish there was a simple, reliable and easy to read angle of
attack (AOA) gauge available for gliders, optimized for efficient
thermalling (no adjustment needed for water ballast or bank angle -
unlike airspeed) and safe pattern speeds (instant response to wind
gradient and shear; and again automatically adjusts for landing right
off tow while still full of water).

Then you could use this exercise to show how to drive the AOA way past
the stalling AOA while still appearing to be in a level "flying"
attitude.

Kirk

Hey Kirk.....I thought that you had experimented with placing "yaw strings"
on the sides of the canopy at one point....any input re how that went for a
poor man's AOA?

Casey

Yeah, I tried a "yaw string" AoA setup, and while it did show AoA, it
was extremely sensitive to yaw, and wasn't really in the correct
position to help a pilot while thermalling or during landing. Plus the
range from "cruise" to "min sink" to "too slow" wasn't very big (on my
LS6, using about 8 inch long "AoA strings") - less than 2 inches, if I
remember right, and the ends are always moving making holding a
particular AoA a bit problematical.

Plus one of the strings (the upwind one, obviously) was always getting
caught in the canopy...

Heck, JJ, I figure that since the F-4 came equipped with both a real
live mil-spec yaw string (there is actually a hole in front of the
windscreen for the string to exit after being tied off inside the nose
- and a black stripe painted in front of the canopy for reference) and
a really nice visual and aural AoA system, we should have the same
thing in a glider.

An aural "fast - on speed - SLOW" AoA tone that would replace the audio
vario when the gear is down would be nice...

JJ, it was 3 to 8 units until the jet started to fly again - pointy end
first. Otherwise, the F-4 departure bold face was (I think...) "STICK
- FORWARD, AILERONS AND RUDDER - NEUTRAL, IF NOT RECOVERED MAINTAIN
FULL FORWARD STICK AND DEPLOY DRAG CHUTE"

And I think the the spin recovery bold face was: "STICK - MAINTAIN FULL
FORWARD, AILERONS - FULL WITH SPIN (TURN NEEDLE), AIRCRAFT UNLOADED -
AILERONS NEUTRAL"

Departures were interesting, but spins were a bad thing!

Off to fly!

Kirk

At 21:06 01 July 2005, wrote:
Yeah, I tried a 'yaw string' AoA setup, and while it
did show AoA, it
was extremely sensitive to yaw, and wasn't really in
the correct
position to help a pilot while thermalling or during
landing. Plus the
range from 'cruise' to 'min sink' to 'too slow' wasn't
very big (on my
LS6, using about 8 inch long 'AoA strings') - less
than 2 inches, if I
remember right, and the ends are always moving making
holding a
particular AoA a bit problematical.

Plus one of the strings (the upwind one, obviously)
was always getting
caught in the canopy...

Heck, JJ, I figure that since the F-4 came equipped
with both a real
live mil-spec yaw string (there is actually a hole
in front of the
windscreen for the string to exit after being tied
off inside the nose
- and a black stripe painted in front of the canopy
for reference) and
a really nice visual and aural AoA system, we should
have the same
thing in a glider.

An aural 'fast - on speed - SLOW' AoA tone that would
replace the audio
vario when the gear is down would be nice...

JJ, it was 3 to 8 units until the jet started to fly
again - pointy end
first. Otherwise, the F-4 departure bold face was
(I think...) 'STICK
- FORWARD, AILERONS AND RUDDER - NEUTRAL, IF NOT RECOVERED
MAINTAIN
FULL FORWARD STICK AND DEPLOY DRAG CHUTE'

And I think the the spin recovery bold face was: 'STICK
- MAINTAIN FULL
FORWARD, AILERONS - FULL WITH SPIN (TURN NEEDLE), AIRCRAFT
UNLOADED -
AILERONS NEUTRAL'

Departures were interesting, but spins were a bad thing!

Off to fly!

Kirk

Differs from the SEPECAT Jaguar where the action is
much simpler. SEIZE BLACK AND YELLOW HANDLE, PULL HARD
:-)

I have never been in that predicament. Never seen a cable break
or lost power at below 200 ft or the tow rope on aero tow.
I do have 1000s of hours and acro time.

If I would want to land downwind on the runway I was taking off
I could be inclined to just kick in full rudder, and make the 180 Turn
via a "Hammerhead" I think it is called a "Kehre" in German, or a
"Turn? There would be mostly rudder work required, some back preasure
on coming out of a dive following the wingover, which is really half a
spin. Has anyone ever seen that done? Actually, come to think of it, I
have, in an airshow, a long time ago in a clipped wing Cub.

I will have to try at altitude, what will need more altitude to
recover.

DB

Pushing over forward very hard after cable break, you could get into a
negative flight regime, possibly into an inverted spin?



Don Johnstone wrote:
At 21:06 01 July 2005, wrote:
Yeah, I tried a 'yaw string' AoA setup, and while it
did show AoA, it
was extremely sensitive to yaw, and wasn't really in
the correct
position to help a pilot while thermalling or during
landing. Plus the
range from 'cruise' to 'min sink' to 'too slow' wasn't
very big (on my
LS6, using about 8 inch long 'AoA strings') - less
than 2 inches, if I
remember right, and the ends are always moving making
holding a
particular AoA a bit problematical.

Plus one of the strings (the upwind one, obviously)
was always getting
caught in the canopy...

Heck, JJ, I figure that since the F-4 came equipped
with both a real
live mil-spec yaw string (there is actually a hole
in front of the
windscreen for the string to exit after being tied
off inside the nose
- and a black stripe painted in front of the canopy
for reference) and
a really nice visual and aural AoA system, we should
have the same
thing in a glider.

An aural 'fast - on speed - SLOW' AoA tone that would
replace the audio
vario when the gear is down would be nice...

JJ, it was 3 to 8 units until the jet started to fly
again - pointy end
first. Otherwise, the F-4 departure bold face was
(I think...) 'STICK
- FORWARD, AILERONS AND RUDDER - NEUTRAL, IF NOT RECOVERED
MAINTAIN
FULL FORWARD STICK AND DEPLOY DRAG CHUTE'

And I think the the spin recovery bold face was: 'STICK
- MAINTAIN FULL
FORWARD, AILERONS - FULL WITH SPIN (TURN NEEDLE), AIRCRAFT
UNLOADED -
AILERONS NEUTRAL'

Departures were interesting, but spins were a bad thing!

Off to fly!

Kirk

Differs from the SEPECAT Jaguar where the action is
much simpler. SEIZE BLACK AND YELLOW HANDLE, PULL HARD
:-)

Dear Mr (or Mrs or Ms or Miss) Soarski,

Whoever you are, please remind me not to stand on or near any airfield where
you are flying, as I don't want a glider falling on top of me. Feeding in
full rudder after a rope or cable break almost guarantees a spin and once
you are in one you will lose at least 150 ft per turn plus another 300ft to
recover. I do hope you were not being serious!

The correct recovery from a winch launch cable break is to lower the nose
fairly rapidly to slightly below the normal approach attitude, allow the
speed to build up to the correct approach speed for the day and then decide
what to do, depending on your height and landing options ahead. It is
usually safer to land ahead if you can. While you are waiting for the nose
to come down it is also a good idea to pull the cable release twice to get
rid of any remaining broken cable, so it can't get caught round any trees,
power lines, etc.

From aerotow you are usually in a more level attitude and usually have
plenty of speed. If the rope breaks just lower the nose slightly and monitor
your airspeed. If you are low you have to land more or less straight ahead.
With a bit more height - say 200 ft or more, a 180 degree turn is possible,
but must be flown accurately - not skidded round on the rudder.

Regards
Derek C (UK Instructor)

05:18 02 July 2005 'Soarski' wrote:
I have never been in that predicament. Never seen a cable break
or lost power at below 200 ft or the tow rope on aero tow.
I do have 1000s of hours and acro time.

If I would want to land downwind on the runway I was taking off
I could be inclined to just kick in full rudder, and make the 180 Turn
via a "Hammerhead" I think it is called a "Kehre" in German, or a
"Turn? There would be mostly rudder work required, some back preasure
on coming out of a dive following the wingover, which is really half a
spin. Has anyone ever seen that done? Actually, come to think of it, I
have, in an airshow, a long time ago in a clipped wing Cub.

I will have to try at altitude, what will need more altitude to
recover

On 1 Jul 2005 22:00:34 -0700, "soarski" wrote:


If I would want to land downwind on the runway I was taking off
I could be inclined to just kick in full rudder, and make the 180 Turn
via a "Hammerhead" I think it is called a "Kehre" in German, or a
"Turn? There would be mostly rudder work required, some back preasure
on coming out of a dive following the wingover, which is really half a
spin. Has anyone ever seen that done? Actually, come to think of it, I
have, in an airshow, a long time ago in a clipped wing Cub.

Jmmm... I never ever heard of such a maneuvre. The closer to the
ground, the more important it is to keep the yaw string centered.
Kicking in full rudder is regarded as censored.

We simply fly a 180 degrees turn at the end of the runway.



Pushing over forward very hard after cable break, you could get into a
negative flight regime, possibly into an inverted spin?

No. Not even if you puished the stick to the forward stop.

Bye
Andreas

Hi Tom

Just because the gilder is at a 40 to 50 degree nose up attitude with respect to
the ground does not mean it has the energy for a stall turn.

There was a recent fatality in New Zealand where someone inadvertently tried
this. Assume you were joking, but in case you were serious, please feel free to
try it - the outcome would be merely predictable, if a little sad. Since I live
nearly 9 000 miles away I am confident you will not impact on my personal safety...

Bruce

soarski wrote:
I have never been in that predicament. Never seen a cable break
or lost power at below 200 ft or the tow rope on aero tow.
I do have 1000s of hours and acro time.

SNIP

MAINTAIN
FULL FORWARD STICK AND DEPLOY DRAG CHUTE'

And I think the the spin recovery bold face was: 'STICK
- MAINTAIN FULL
FORWARD, AILERONS - FULL WITH SPIN (TURN NEEDLE), AIRCRAFT
UNLOADED -
AILERONS NEUTRAL'

Departures were interesting, but spins were a bad thing!

Off to fly!

Kirk

Differs from the SEPECAT Jaguar where the action is
much simpler. SEIZE BLACK AND YELLOW HANDLE, PULL HARD
:-)




--
Bruce Greeff
Std Cirrus #57
I'm no-T at the address above.