Avgas in France has reached $7.50/gal !

George Patterson wrote:

What's insurance like over there?

At the moment, liability insurance requirements for aircraft up to 2
tons MTOW is around 3 Million dollars (approximately). This may or may
not change in the future, but I tend to think it won't. For heavier
airplanes, it is higher. This includes third party liability (if you
fall onto your neighbour's house, or more realistically, if you taxi
into your neighbour's plane) and passenger injury liability on private
flights. Passengers on commercial flights is another story.

This is about the same as for cars. In Europe, cars are required to have
liability insurance when they are moved on public roads. I think this is
a good idea.

To fully appreciate these numbers, you should bear in mind that
liability in Europe is just this, liability. It pays the expenses, and
that's it. Not 10 millions because your dog can't sleep anymore.

(Because I know absolutely nothing about the US legal system, I feel
sufficielntly qualified to express it like this: We don't have
dunderhead liability laws nor dunderhead juries who pay millions to any
dunderhead guy who burnes his mouth because nobody told him that coffee
usually tends to be hot.)

Stefan

G Farris wrote:

I think it's true, even obvious, that the cost of flying in Europe is the main
reason why there are relatively few who take it up.

Of course flying cost much more in Europe than in the USA. Roughly said,
VFR on light singles cost twice as much. But I don't think cost is the
main reason. It is one of several reasons. Those who really want to fly
usually can manage it. (OTOH, twins or IFR are out of the range for most
people.)

I don't think it's ridiculous to say the authorities in France are "killing"
general aviation. Many - probably most - private pilots in France feel this
way, and it's clearly expressed in the aviation press.

Don't believe everything that's written in the press, even aviation
press. Yes, regulations are tight. Airspace in Europe is very congested,
and it has been a political decision that commercial aviation gets
priority. But nobody wants to "kill" something.

There is also an attitude difference in pilots. Many Europeans are more
oriented toward leisure flying,

Exactly. Private flying here is mostly recreational flying. And as such,
costs are looked at with another view. Do I prefer to spend 5'000 for
flying or do I prefer to go skiing with my family? This decision pushes
out all those who don't *really* want to fly.

On the other hand, don't forget that soaring is much more popular here
than in the USA. When you look at flying as a recreational hobby, then
soaring is much more rewarding than motorized flight (and cheaper, too).
There is a healthy soaring community in most parts of Europe, but
especially in France.

Stefan

George Patterson wrote:

What's insurance like over there?

The annual premium (both liability and hull coverage) for a Katana DA20
owned by a flying club in Germany used to be the equivalent of around $5500
(slightly over 4000 Euro).

Greetings,
Markus

In article , Martin Hotze wrote:
they apparently have other priorities. They have faster trains, for example. How
does this compare with the US?

I think this is part of the point; if you made avgas tax free across
Europe, you still wouldn't get anywhere near US levels of GA. That's
because it'll still be much faster, more reliable and cheaper to travel
by train for business purposes and move small freight items by road
(since the distances are far smaller), and larger freight items by rail.

GA would still be largely personal, in-your-free-time types of
activities.
--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

"Martin Hotze" wrote in message
...
"Jay Honeck" wrote:

It's the relative PROPORTION of pilots, aircraft, and airports that is
out
of whack in France. If aviation weren't dead in France, they should
have
the same PROPORTION of pilots, aircraft and airports as the US.


they apparently have other priorities. They have faster trains, for
example. How
does this compare with the US?

No doubt France has fast trains and an excellent rail system. Problem is
when I was there they went on strike every other day which made them
useless.

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:dcG9e.13130$Fm5.9947@trndny09...
Dave Stadt wrote:

If you believe GA is in good shape in France and other parts of the EU
go to
the AOPA WEB site and read about the new liability insurance
requirements
the EU has placed on GA aircraft. $119 million in liability insurance
required for a 182. Doesn't sound healthy to me.

Read through the actual PDF document. For a private operator, they require
a
minimum of 100,000 SDRs/passenger and 1,000 SDRs for luggage. For coverage
of
non-passengers, you need 3 million SDRs for a 182. The current exchange
rate is
1.51746 dollars to one SDR. While the rate is still crazy, no way can I
make it
add up to $119 million. Seems to me that's a policy for $4,552,380 with
sublimits of $151,746 per seat, plus a luggage allowance.

In any case, what's important is the amount of the premium, not the
coverage
amount. Liability cases are not settled by juries in Europe, nor are the
awards
very high (by American standards). I'd bet the premiums are far lower as
well.

Stefan? Wolfgang? Martin? Dylan? What's insurance like over there?

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

AOPA changed the story. Yesterday it said $119 million for a 182, this
morning it is "Almost $5 million."

Every indicator I can find shows that the French have killed general
aviation -- or nearly so -- for everyone but the very rich.

If I didn't know it before, I'd do so now: You've never been in France. I
have. You're just plain wrong.

Okay, Stefan -- the ball is in your court.

Show me one statistic that disproves that aviation in France hasn't been
decimated by the French government's predatory aviation gas tax strategy.

I've searched, and can't find one.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Jay Honeck wrote:


Stefan

(Because I know absolutely nothing about the US legal system, I feel
sufficielntly qualified to express it like this: We don't have dunderhead
liability laws nor dunderhead juries who pay millions to any dunderhead
guy who burnes his mouth because nobody told him that coffee usually tends
to be hot.)

You'll get no argument from me on this one, Stefan.

We do, indeed, have the most dunderheaded legal system ever devised by man.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

It proves no such thing. American enumeracy at work.
The land mass of France, as far as I can determine from a quick sweep, is
one 18th that of the US. Is their number of pilots and/or airports an
eighteenth of those in this country?

Since when do potential pilots decide to become pilots based on the
available *land mass*? What kind of logic is THAT?

In my world, aviation enthusiasts become pilots because they can't resist
the call.

Unless, of course, they can't find the money to pay for it...

Taxation? How did such a silly premise get started?

Excessive taxation (or, if you will, social engineering) controls EVERYTHING
in society. When you tax something by 300%, you very effectively limit its
use.

As a fellow Iowan you can relate to this example: What is going to happen
to cigarette smoking in Iowa if (when?) the legislature double the tax on a
pack of smokes, as they are debating this very week? Predictions range
from a 13% to 26% drop in smoking.

Works the same with avgas.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

and Diamond comes to mind .... an Austrian company (also with a production
plant
in Canada).

And they make a terrific product.

But it's not by accident that they have focused their attention on North
America, where semi-healthy general aviation still exists.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"