Tow cars and trailers

Well, gas is $3.50/Gal in many parts of the US and who is to say it won't be
$4/gal next summer. This is starting to hurt - and getting me to think of a
more economical vehicle.

Many of us drive larger vehicles than we might otherwise choose simply to
pull our trailers 1% of the time. 99% of the time, we could be driving,
say, a Volkswagen Passat TDI diesel getting 45mpg. The problem isn't the
gas milage when towing a glider trailer. We don't do that often enough for
it to impact out annual fuel budget. The problem is a big SUV as a daily
driver.

So, are there any tricks here? One is to simply own two cars. One to pull
a trailer and another for a daily driver that gets good milage. Paying
license fees, insurance and other fixed costs for a vehicle driven 1% of the
time seems outrageous though.

The other thread about surge brakes got me thinking WAY outside the box. Is
there a way for the trailer to be self-propelled? If one were to install a
load sensor in the trailer tongue that could sense the pull of the tow
vehicle as well as the push of an over-running trailer, could that control a
small power plant in the trailer that drove the trailer's wheels? If done
perfectly, a light towing vehicle might not feel the trailer at all.

If the trailer power were electric, you would have a parallel, plug-in
hybrid. The car engine would charge the trailer batteries when they were
not needed for propulsion and the electrics would kick in on the hills.
Downhill regenerative braking would also charge the trailer batteries as
could large solar panels on the trailer.

It might work fine for a short commute to the glider field and maybe not so
well on a cross country trip but it's fun thinking about.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels schrieb:

Many of us drive larger vehicles than we might otherwise choose simply to
pull our trailers 1% of the time. 99% of the time, we could be driving,
say, a Volkswagen Passat TDI diesel getting 45mpg.

The Volkswagen Passat TDI is a fairly common tow vehicle in Europe. No
need for a SUV. But then, this has been discussed here many times.

"anonymous" no.email@spamfree wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels schrieb:

Many of us drive larger vehicles than we might otherwise choose simply to
pull our trailers 1% of the time. 99% of the time, we could be driving,
say, a Volkswagen Passat TDI diesel getting 45mpg.

The Volkswagen Passat TDI is a fairly common tow vehicle in Europe. No
need for a SUV. But then, this has been discussed here many times.

Yes, I know that. However, it's not common in the US bacause of the higher,
hotter, longer trip conditions here. Almost any trip in the western US will
include at least one long, steep grade starting with temperatures above 40C
that may climb to 3600 meters ASL. I know of one VW that arrived as
essentially junk after one trip. The next time I saw that pilot, he was
driving a much bigger tow vehicle.

If you prefer the manufacturer's position, here's a comment from USA Today's
James R. Healey::
"Back to the Passat towing spec question: VW just called to say towing's not
recommended with the Passat and that's why no towing spec is provided. Would
towing void the warranty? Uh, um, well, probably not, VW says, as long as
you tow light loads with a proper hitch installed and used per the
aftermarket supplier's recommendations. Unless, of course, some damage is
the obvious result of towing. Sounds to me as if anybody who wants to tow
should choose a different car. Too much 'maybe' factor with Passat. "

The VW Passat TDI diesel is a great car. I just wouldn't abuse it by towing
a glider trailer.

Bill Daniels

On May 18, 12:48 am, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
Yes, I know that. However, it's not common in the US bacause of the higher,
hotter, longer trip conditions here. Almost any trip in the western US will
include at least one long, steep grade starting with temperatures above 40C
that may climb to 3600 meters ASL. I know of one VW that arrived as
essentially junk after one trip. The next time I saw that pilot, he was
driving a much bigger tow vehicle.

I can only think that it was very old or not maintained. Gliders are
light; a modern European TDi would barely notice the load even over
the roads you describe (which are common in the Alps).


Dan

Bill Daniels wrote:
"anonymous" no.email@spamfree wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels schrieb:

Many of us drive larger vehicles than we might otherwise choose simply to
pull our trailers 1% of the time. 99% of the time, we could be driving,
say, a Volkswagen Passat TDI diesel getting 45mpg.
The Volkswagen Passat TDI is a fairly common tow vehicle in Europe. No
need for a SUV. But then, this has been discussed here many times.

Yes, I know that. However, it's not common in the US bacause of the higher,
hotter, longer trip conditions here. Almost any trip in the western US will
include at least one long, steep grade starting with temperatures above 40C
that may climb to 3600 meters ASL. I know of one VW that arrived as
essentially junk after one trip. The next time I saw that pilot, he was
driving a much bigger tow vehicle.

If you prefer the manufacturer's position, here's a comment from USA Today's
James R. Healey::
"Back to the Passat towing spec question: VW just called to say towing's not
recommended with the Passat and that's why no towing spec is provided. Would
towing void the warranty? Uh, um, well, probably not, VW says, as long as
you tow light loads with a proper hitch installed and used per the
aftermarket supplier's recommendations. Unless, of course, some damage is
the obvious result of towing. Sounds to me as if anybody who wants to tow
should choose a different car. Too much 'maybe' factor with Passat. "

The VW Passat TDI diesel is a great car. I just wouldn't abuse it by towing
a glider trailer.

Bill Daniels


Bill,

I have to agree with Dan. With the TDI (turbocharged diesel injection)
the elevation would have almost no effect. Yes, pulling up the hills
would work the engine a bit, but gearing down and watching the temps
should cover that.

Ed

At 00:48 18 May 2007, Ed Winchester wrote:
Bill Daniels wrote:
'anonymous' wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels schrieb:

Many of us drive larger vehicles than we might otherwise
choose simply to
pull our trailers 1% of the time. 99% of the time,
we could be driving,
say, a Volkswagen Passat TDI diesel getting 45mpg.
The Volkswagen Passat TDI is a fairly common tow vehicle
in Europe. No
need for a SUV. But then, this has been discussed
here many times.

Yes, I know that. However, it's not common in the
US bacause of the higher,
hotter, longer trip conditions here. Almost any trip
in the western US will
include at least one long, steep grade starting with
temperatures above 40C
that may climb to 3600 meters ASL. I know of one
VW that arrived as
essentially junk after one trip. The next time I
saw that pilot, he was
driving a much bigger tow vehicle.

If you prefer the manufacturer's position, here's
a comment from USA Today's
James R. Healey::
'Back to the Passat towing spec question: VW just
called to say towing's not
recommended with the Passat and that's why no towing
spec is provided. Would
towing void the warranty? Uh, um, well, probably not,
VW says, as long as
you tow light loads with a proper hitch installed
and used per the
aftermarket supplier's recommendations. Unless, of
course, some damage is
the obvious result of towing. Sounds to me as if anybody
who wants to tow
should choose a different car. Too much 'maybe' factor
with Passat. '

The VW Passat TDI diesel is a great car. I just wouldn't
abuse it by towing
a glider trailer.

Bill Daniels


Bill,

I have to agree with Dan. With the TDI (turbocharged
diesel injection)
the elevation would have almost no effect. Yes, pulling
up the hills
would work the engine a bit, but gearing down and watching
the temps
should cover that.

Ed

I think we must be careful not to use too light of
a vehicle to tow our glider trailers with. Although
the 2:1 ratio some trailer rental companies use ('U-Haul
used to require 2:1 ratio between the towing vehicle
and the trailer. Stated differently, the towing vehicle
must weigh twice as much as the trailer and its contents.
To increase rentals, U-Haul lowered that ratio from
2:1 to 1:1. This change decreased stability and increased
accidents'.--from http://www.beasleyallen.com) may
be suitable for short coupled trailers, our glider
trailers although admittedly light in weight, have
much greater moments due to the longer arm, so for
me at least, that unfortunately rules out small, lightweight
super efficient vehicles, due to safety concerns. I
did find this in another thread though, talking about
glider towing with a Toyota Highlander Hybrid:
'I'll add my two cents to this thread. I towed my glider
trailer last weekend with a HH 4wd. Glider trailers
are tricky to tow because of their length (28') and
the fact that they have a lot of sail area. Weight
is about 1800 lbs. The rig was rock solid in mountainous
terrain with a 25 mph crosswind. Was at least as good
as my previous vehicle, a Grand Cherokee. I am quite
pleased with the performance. Overall, I am getting
about 26-27 MPG'.
found in:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0daea6

I like the idea of good gas mileage, since I tow mine
enough for that to be a major budget concern, for me.
(Ca to Memphis last Feb, Ca to Oshkosh later, plus
several milk runs...ouch) I currently tow with a Chevy
Astro Van, and get around 18-19mpg, doing normal interstate
speeds (70-80mph), so 26-27mpg does not sound too bad,
although I would need a motel when I got where I was
going because the Highlander Hybrid does not sound
big enough for me to camp in with my dog while on site.
It does sound like a good possible solution for some
of you though.

I do really like the idea of some sort of drive-assist
system in the trailer though, an idea I've considered
before, although my gas mileage without the trailer
is near the same in the Astro. Somebody needs to develop
a hybrid van, with good towing capacity, coupled to
a trailer that assists and then we would be on to something.
Although, the excessive cost of this combo would probably
outweigh the extra money that would be saved on gas,
it seems like a step in the right direction none the
less.

Paul Hanson
"Do the usual, unusually well"--Len Niemi

On May 18, 3:14 pm, Paul Hanson
wrote:
At 00:48 18 May 2007, Ed Winchester wrote:



Bill Daniels wrote:
'anonymous' wrote in message
. ch...
Bill Daniels schrieb:

Many of us drive larger vehicles than we might otherwise
choose simply to
pull our trailers 1% of the time. 99% of the time,
we could be driving,
say, a Volkswagen Passat TDI diesel getting 45mpg.
The Volkswagen Passat TDI is a fairly common tow vehicle
in Europe. No
need for a SUV. But then, this has been discussed
here many times.

Yes, I know that. However, it's not common in the
US bacause of the higher,
hotter, longer trip conditions here. Almost any trip
in the western US will
include at least one long, steep grade starting with
temperatures above 40C
that may climb to 3600 meters ASL. I know of one
VW that arrived as
essentially junk after one trip. The next time I
saw that pilot, he was
driving a much bigger tow vehicle.

If you prefer the manufacturer's position, here's
a comment from USA Today's
James R. Healey::
'Back to the Passat towing spec question: VW just
called to say towing's not
recommended with the Passat and that's why no towing
spec is provided. Would
towing void the warranty? Uh, um, well, probably not,
VW says, as long as
you tow light loads with a proper hitch installed
and used per the
aftermarket supplier's recommendations. Unless, of
course, some damage is
the obvious result of towing. Sounds to me as if anybody
who wants to tow
should choose a different car. Too much 'maybe' factor
with Passat. '

The VW Passat TDI diesel is a great car. I just wouldn't
abuse it by towing
a glider trailer.

Bill Daniels

Bill,

I have to agree with Dan. With the TDI (turbocharged
diesel injection)
the elevation would have almost no effect. Yes, pulling
up the hills
would work the engine a bit, but gearing down and watching
the temps
should cover that.

Ed

I think we must be careful not to use too light of
a vehicle to tow our glider trailers with. Although
the 2:1 ratio some trailer rental companies use ('U-Haul
used to require 2:1 ratio between the towing vehicle
and the trailer. Stated differently, the towing vehicle
must weigh twice as much as the trailer and its contents.
To increase rentals, U-Haul lowered that ratio from
2:1 to 1:1. This change decreased stability and increased
accidents'.--fromhttp://www.beasleyallen.com) may
be suitable for short coupled trailers, our glider
trailers although admittedly light in weight, have
much greater moments due to the longer arm, so for
me at least, that unfortunately rules out small, lightweight
super efficient vehicles, due to safety concerns. I
did find this in another thread though, talking about
glider towing with a Toyota Highlander Hybrid:
'I'll add my two cents to this thread. I towed my glider
trailer last weekend with a HH 4wd. Glider trailers
are tricky to tow because of their length (28') and
the fact that they have a lot of sail area. Weight
is about 1800 lbs. The rig was rock solid in mountainous
terrain with a 25 mph crosswind. Was at least as good
as my previous vehicle, a Grand Cherokee. I am quite
pleased with the performance. Overall, I am getting
about 26-27 MPG'.
found in:http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0daea6

I like the idea of good gas mileage, since I tow mine
enough for that to be a major budget concern, for me.
(Ca to Memphis last Feb, Ca to Oshkosh later, plus
several milk runs...ouch) I currently tow with a Chevy
Astro Van, and get around 18-19mpg, doing normal interstate
speeds (70-80mph), so 26-27mpg does not sound too bad,
although I would need a motel when I got where I was
going because the Highlander Hybrid does not sound
big enough for me to camp in with my dog while on site.
It does sound like a good possible solution for some
of you though.

I do really like the idea of some sort of drive-assist
system in the trailer though, an idea I've considered
before, although my gas mileage without the trailer
is near the same in the Astro. Somebody needs to develop
a hybrid van, with good towing capacity, coupled to
a trailer that assists and then we would be on to something.
Although, the excessive cost of this combo would probably
outweigh the extra money that would be saved on gas,
it seems like a step in the right direction none the
less.

Paul Hanson
"Do the usual, unusually well"--Len Niemi- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

A little sideways on this thread ,how does a Chevy Blazer 4.3 litre,
handle the towing loads as I am considering one as a tow
vehicle ,pulling
a tube type of trailer for a Ventus b or Nimbus 2 model. Any bad
reports or known problems I should be aware of .
gary

I think it's important to be clear what we're talking about here. A VW
Passat TDi station wagon has a combined mpg of 48 and a long-run mpg
of 58, with 236lbs/ft of torque at 1,750rpm. The car has a kerbweight
of 3,500lbs and using the figure of 85%* of kerbweight to give towing
capacity, that allows trailers of up to 3,000lbs to be towed
comfortably.

*85% kerbweight - with 7% of the trailer's weight on the hitch or the
tow car's maximum, whichever is lower - is the maximum safe weight for
good stability, arrived at by the University of Bath in the 1990s when
they did instrumented testing and model simulation of tow cars and
trailer combinations.


Dan

Dan G wrote:
I think it's important to be clear what we're talking about here. A VW
Passat TDi station wagon has a combined mpg of 48 and a long-run mpg
of 58, with 236lbs/ft of torque at 1,750rpm. The car has a kerbweight
of 3,500lbs and using the figure of 85%* of kerbweight to give towing
capacity, that allows trailers of up to 3,000lbs to be towed
comfortably.

*85% kerbweight - with 7% of the trailer's weight on the hitch or the
tow car's maximum, whichever is lower - is the maximum safe weight for
good stability, arrived at by the University of Bath in the 1990s when
they did instrumented testing and model simulation of tow cars and
trailer combinations.


Dan


Closed Trailer with a Std Cirrus in it is 680kg (54% is easily inside the
85%)The sail effect is a bigger decider for me - the trailer can push a smaller
car around when you are exposed to gusts at speed.

Hatchback weight is 1250Kg. Tows happily at the national speed limit, although
it does get a bit hard work in the mountains. Tops of our passes are around
2,300m MSL Nothing too bad for the small car to tow. Then I got into a Kestrel
T59D with one piece wings. It's trailer is unaerodynamic, heavy (900Kg) and
just plain huge.
The stability issue is in a different class. With nearly 2 tons of Wales' best
(XC70 is made in Wales not Sweden) and a really big polar moment on such a long
vehicle, the disturbance from trucks and wind is a lot lower. Fuel consumption
is not that different towing the trailer between the two - unless you get
irresponsible/inattentive with the speed. The control reserve is generally
bigger with the bigger car.
So stability is the primary towing reason for getting the barge - the other
reasons are indefensible. (It's hard making a logical case for something that
comes down to - "I like it".)In town the hatchback is the place to be - on the
open road or dirt roads the Volvo is a far nicer ride.

Cost - @ 2l/100km additional fuel is around 400litres per year. (roughly 100US
gallons)At ~R7/l (4USD/US gallon) that is quite a lot of money. In South Africa
the cost of my vehicular extravagance is equivalent to at least one tow per
month. I winch launch so the extra fuel for the trip to the airfield is close to
the cost of a winch launch.

On May 17, 11:14 pm, Paul Hanson
wrote:

I think we must be careful not to use too light of
a vehicle to tow our glider trailers with. Although
the 2:1 ratio some trailer rental companies use ('U-Haul
used to require 2:1 ratio between the towing vehicle
and the trailer. Stated differently, the towing vehicle
must weigh twice as much as the trailer and its contents.
To increase rentals, U-Haul lowered that ratio from
2:1 to 1:1. This change decreased stability and increased
accidents'.--fromhttp://www.beasleyallen.com) may
be suitable for short coupled trailers, our glider
trailers although admittedly light in weight, have
much greater moments due to the longer arm, so for
me at least, that unfortunately rules out small, lightweight
super efficient vehicles, due to safety concerns. I
did find this in another thread though, talking about
glider towing with a Toyota Highlander Hybrid:
'I'll add my two cents to this thread. I towed my glider
trailer last weekend with a HH 4wd. Glider trailers
are tricky to tow because of their length (28') and
the fact that they have a lot of sail area. Weight
is about 1800 lbs. The rig was rock solid in mountainous
terrain with a 25 mph crosswind. Was at least as good
as my previous vehicle, a Grand Cherokee. I am quite
pleased with the performance. Overall, I am getting
about 26-27 MPG'.
found in:http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0daea6

I like the idea of good gas mileage, since I tow mine
enough for that to be a major budget concern, for me.
(Ca to Memphis last Feb, Ca to Oshkosh later, plus
several milk runs...ouch) I currently tow with a Chevy
Astro Van, and get around 18-19mpg, doing normal interstate
speeds (70-80mph), so 26-27mpg does not sound too bad,
although I would need a motel when I got where I was
going because the Highlander Hybrid does not sound
big enough for me to camp in with my dog while on site.
It does sound like a good possible solution for some
of you though.

I do really like the idea of some sort of drive-assist
system in the trailer though, an idea I've considered
before, although my gas mileage without the trailer
is near the same in the Astro. Somebody needs to develop
a hybrid van, with good towing capacity, coupled to
a trailer that assists and then we would be on to something.
Although, the excessive cost of this combo would probably
outweigh the extra money that would be saved on gas,
it seems like a step in the right direction none the
less.

Paul Hanson
"Do the usual, unusually well"--Len Niemi

Also consider the Ford Escape/Mercury Mariner hybrids (aka FEH or
MMH). Curb weight 3800lbs,
35-40mpg with good driving techniques. Supposedly there's a Toyota
hybrid minivan coming one
of these days (it's been available in Japan for several years now)
that includes electric drive on the
rear wheels (like the HyHi). Personally I have a Prius as my wife's
car, which I love except for the
fact that it can't tow anything.

One additional consideration is to think further outside the box.
What about using public transportation,
bicycling, or telecommuting for your daily grind? You can keep the
gashog around for the weekends.
When I was riding the bus every day to work my gas usage in my truck
dropped to around 1 tank a month
(300 miles or so), which is enough to keep it running well but not
enough to be a financial drag. I also
got a break on car insurance because I wasn't using it for daily
commute.