secret advice

ok...as to flying c-150/172 type aircraft, what can you do, really,
that's fun and won't hurt the airframe? at 80mph, can you really hurt
the machine with full control deflection? i guess that's what i'm
asking ... how much can you "yank and bank" these things before bad
things happen? i can get a real good feel for the slow flight
characteristics by trying it at altitude. a can't think of any way to
test airframe without testing to destruction....mine. exactly how do
you do those rolls???

i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
do?"


dan

Plot a V-n diagram and look where the load limits are for all airspeeds.
Calculate the various limit airspeeds at different weights and make
plots for each weight.

houstondan wrote:
ok...as to flying c-150/172 type aircraft, what can you do, really,
that's fun and won't hurt the airframe? at 80mph, can you really hurt
the machine with full control deflection? i guess that's what i'm
asking ... how much can you "yank and bank" these things before bad
things happen? i can get a real good feel for the slow flight
characteristics by trying it at altitude. a can't think of any way to
test airframe without testing to destruction....mine. exactly how do
you do those rolls???
i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
do?"

oh.


dan

Dan,

Although John is correct here is another way to look at it.

I don't have the POH for either aircraft in front of me but I'm fairly
certain that the speed you listed is well below Vna of both aircraft,
which means you 'should' be able to use full and abrupt control inputs
without structural damage to the airframe.

However, recovering from whatever attitude that puts you in, (including
possibly a spin) is up to you to recover without impacting anything.

As for the roll, depending on what type of roll you're performing, you may
well be not pulling more than 1G at anytime if done properly.

Of course I'm not suggesting that you go out and test this.

PJ

============================================
Here's to the duck who swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together.
JJW
============================================

"houstondan" wrote in message
oups.com...
ok...as to flying c-150/172 type aircraft, what can you do, really,
that's fun and won't hurt the airframe? at 80mph, can you really hurt
the machine with full control deflection? i guess that's what i'm
asking ... how much can you "yank and bank" these things before bad
things happen? i can get a real good feel for the slow flight
characteristics by trying it at altitude. a can't think of any way to
test airframe without testing to destruction....mine. exactly how do
you do those rolls???

i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
do?"


dan

#1) Dont go skydiving without a parachute (that should be hitting close
to home if you fly where I think you do). Dont exit your own 150/2 in
flight without a qualified pilot at the controls either.

#2) Get a copy of the Cessna 150 Aerobatic Training Manual. Said book
may be out of print, but if you can find it it would be a good reference
for yanking and banking type stuff. I have my father's old copy that is
probably older than I am.

#3) Before continuing with said yanking and banking aspirations, head to
to LaPorte and get some aerobatic instruction or spin training. Even if
you don't ever intend to do such things in your own plane, its a good
exposure to just what kind of yanking and banking stuff is out there, as
well as how to recover when you overyank and over bank

Unfortunately, I can't go into any REALLY secret advice without the
secret handshake.

Dave

Disclaimer to the rest of the world: the above advice is predicated on
living in or near the Houston, Texas and being familiar with places of
business alluded to in items #1 and #3

houstondan wrote:
ok...as to flying c-150/172 type aircraft, what can you do, really,
that's fun and won't hurt the airframe? at 80mph, can you really hurt
the machine with full control deflection? i guess that's what i'm
asking ... how much can you "yank and bank" these things before bad
things happen? i can get a real good feel for the slow flight
characteristics by trying it at altitude. a can't think of any way to
test airframe without testing to destruction....mine. exactly how do
you do those rolls???

i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
do?"


dan

"Dave S" wrote in message
nk.net...
#1) Dont go skydiving without a parachute (that should be hitting close
to home if you fly where I think you do). Dont exit your own 150/2 in
flight without a qualified pilot at the controls either.

#2) Get a copy of the Cessna 150 Aerobatic Training Manual. Said book
may be out of print, but if you can find it it would be a good reference
for yanking and banking type stuff. I have my father's old copy that is
probably older than I am.

#3) Before continuing with said yanking and banking aspirations, head to
to LaPorte and get some aerobatic instruction or spin training. Even if
you don't ever intend to do such things in your own plane, its a good
exposure to just what kind of yanking and banking stuff is out there, as
well as how to recover when you overyank and over bank

Unfortunately, I can't go into any REALLY secret advice without the
secret handshake.

Dave

Disclaimer to the rest of the world: the above advice is predicated on
living in or near the Houston, Texas and being familiar with places of
business alluded to in items #1 and #3

houstondan wrote:
ok...as to flying c-150/172 type aircraft, what can you do, really,
that's fun and won't hurt the airframe? at 80mph, can you really hurt
the machine with full control deflection? i guess that's what i'm
asking ... how much can you "yank and bank" these things before bad
things happen? i can get a real good feel for the slow flight
characteristics by trying it at altitude. a can't think of any way to
test airframe without testing to destruction....mine. exactly how do
you do those rolls???

i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
do?"


dan

Your question has already been answered, and it sounds like you are
determined to go ahead with a bad decision. good luck.
Clyde

At 80mph you are pretty safe to yank and jerk the controls all
day long. The problem is that as you are doing this you can end
up in a spin or suddendly at a much higher airspeed than you
started out at. Before I tried any fancy aerobatics I'd first
want to be in a plane certified for it and have an experienced
aerobatics pilot with me.

houstondan wrote:

ok...as to flying c-150/172 type aircraft, what can you do, really,
that's fun and won't hurt the airframe? at 80mph, can you really hurt
the machine with full control deflection? i guess that's what i'm
asking ... how much can you "yank and bank" these things before bad
things happen? i can get a real good feel for the slow flight
characteristics by trying it at altitude. a can't think of any way to
test airframe without testing to destruction....mine. exactly how do
you do those rolls???

i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
do?"


dan

You will always pull more than 1 g coming out of a roll. If you don't pull
it coming out of the roll, you will have to pull more than 1 g at some point
to come out of the resulting dive unless you want to hit the ground. You can
stay well within the limits if the airframe, but you can go beyond them
pretty easily, too. 1 G is unaccelerated flight-either straight and level or
in a steady climb or descent. You have to pull up slightly to begin the roll
and you will go to less than 1 G when you're inverted to more than 1 G when
you roll upright and return to level flight.

I did some aerobatics in a Decathlon and what surprised me the most doing my
first barrel roll was how slow it was. I thought I would just whip around it
and be done with it, but it took some time to get all the way around. Even
snap rolls were pretty slow. This would no doubt be longer in a 172 with
what I'm pretty sure is a significantly slower roll rate than a Decathlon.
It's the reason I won't try them in my Tripacer. That would be WAY slow
going around and would probably result in more G's coming out.

mike regish


"PJ Hunt" wrote in message
...

As for the roll, depending on what type of roll you're performing, you may
well be not pulling more than 1G at anytime if done properly.

Of course I'm not suggesting that you go out and test this.

PJ

In a previous article, "houstondan" said:
i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
do?"

Don't teach yourself aerobatics. People who try end up as smoking holes.
Get somebody who knows aerobatics to show you stuff. It doesn't have to
be a CFI, just somebody who knows what they're doing and can recover after
you put it into an inverted flat spin or whatever.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
You mean [Exchange] was deliberately written? I thought someone had
transcribed the writing on a football-stadium restroom wall, found
that it compiled, so shipped it.

hey dave, re#1; yes, about a year ago one of the guys went up with a
paying client and came back down all by himself. guy just decided to
walk home, i guess.

2. got that copied-down and on the computer. ( 'round here, "on the
computer" means it's written on a yellow-stickey and affixed to the
edge of the screen!). if i can't find one, perhaps we could arrange a
"borrow" with appropriate rental and security???

3. what's at laporte? there's a citabria at weiser/windsock and they
do tailwheel/aerobatic ttraining in that. been planning to get with
them. you really hit the point there. i do think there's a big safety
issue around being able to handle different situations.

as i think about it now, the only time i've been in a 172 with some
real yankin&bankin was on the checkride when the examiner did the
"unusual attitude recovery by instrument" drill where you've got your
eyes closed, head down foggles on and he's doin everything he can to
get you discombobulated. i suspect he wanted to instill some humility
and respect. passed that and went straight to pure terror. i did
manage to get the thing back to straight and level....eventually.

damn....i knew there was gunna be a secret handshake. nobody tells me
nuttin.
thx

dan