Nearly Mid-Air Collision at Estrella

A lousy end to what was a beautiful day of soaring, thanks to the USMC
and my own lack of vigilance.

Yesterday a cold front was bearing down on Phoenix. While in other
parts of the country this makes for winter worries, here the front is
a small band of cumulus and a very slight chance of virga. The higher
elevations might see some precipitation. The weather was still great,
it was 3 pm and I was climbing in decent lift with another glider at
the southern end of the Sierra Estrellas-a 15 mile ridge line
southwest of KPHX.

I heard it first. The sound was of a jet close by. The visibility in
the front seat of the Burkhard Grob G103 is excellent, but I could see
nothing. Still the sound, but no airplane. Then, from behind a flight
of two Harriers flew directly between both gliders and slightly above
heading east. As I was at 5500 MSL, and the floor of the Class B wedge
just to the east of my position was 6000 MSL, I would guess that the
jets were close to but under 6000. The encounter lasted all of 10-15
seconds.

I have no idea if they were IFR, nor if they could, should or did
comply with the 200 KIAS speed limit under the shelf of the class B. I
also have no idea whether either I or the other glider was seen by the
lead. After the encounter, I lost my enthusiasm for the flight along
with the thermal and worked my way back to the sailport.

When I fly with students in this area, I hammer the idea that our
piece of the sky is busy due to the natural and man-created boundaries
which will force through traffic to overfly our thermal hunting area.
So I received yet another reminder that I cannot see everything even
part of the time. Were one of the Harriers and me to collide does
anyone think that the TV would have the blame anywhere other than me?

Let's be careful out there. I think I am, but again I got another
chance.

Terry Claussen

It sounds like a scary 10-15 seconds! I know the feeling: I too have had
close encounters with jets. I've been closer than I would have liked to
737's, F-117's, and a B1-b with its wings fully swept back flying
Nap-of-the-Earth. With one 737, I saw its shadow flying directly at mine,
but it took several seconds for me to find it. The other 737 was pointed
out to me by the Approach controller, but neither of us saw each other. The
flight of F-117's I'm sure saw me, for they came up from behind and on my
right, and overtook me on a parallel course. They got my heart pounding
though! But it was the B1-B about 1,000 feet below flying at nearly the
speed of sound that scared the bejeezers out of me! Yes, keep your eyes
outside 99% of the time. Feel for the lift, listen to the audio vario, and
look outside. Not only does this help keep aluminum off of fiberglass, but
it improves your piloting technique as well.

A couple of points about the Harriers you encountered though:
1.) They may or may not have been in contact with ATC, and even if they
were, there would be no separation requirements between them and you.
2.) Military aircraft do not have the 200 knot limitation under the Class B
airspace.
3.) Jet pilots tend not to look outside of the cockpit nearly as much as we
do, and even if they did, it would be extremely difficult for them to see
us. There was a video made of a near-miss a couple of years ago between an
F-16 and a Cessna 172. The footage was from the Heads-Up Display (HUD) of
the F-16. They missed by 15 feet, and you had to play the video in slow
motion to even see the Cessna.

I know those points don't give us a warm and fuzzy feeling, but that's the
world we live in. The best advice that I have is to either avoid the areas
of high risk, communicate with the controlling agency, or work from within
the system to keep the aircraft apart from each other through a Letter of
Agreement (LOA).

Fly safe,
Chris Fleming, 'L9'
ATP B-767, CFI-G


"Terry Claussen" wrote in message
...

I have no idea if they were IFR, nor if they could, should or did
comply with the 200 KIAS speed limit under the shelf of the class B. I
also have no idea whether either I or the other glider was seen by the
lead. After the encounter, I lost my enthusiasm for the flight along
with the thermal and worked my way back to the sailport.

When I fly with students in this area, I hammer the idea that our
piece of the sky is busy due to the natural and man-created boundaries
which will force through traffic to overfly our thermal hunting area.
So I received yet another reminder that I cannot see everything even
part of the time. Were one of the Harriers and me to collide does
anyone think that the TV would have the blame anywhere other than me?

Let's be careful out there. I think I am, but again I got another
chance.

Terry Claussen

"Terry Claussen" wrote in message
...
A lousy end to what was a beautiful day of soaring, thanks to the USMC
and my own lack of vigilance.


Not sure any reasonable amount of vigilance on your part could be counted on
to avoid a high speed jet from nailing you from behind when you're running
straight in a glider (or other small GA aircraft). I've seen a couple of
fighters pass right close behind another Stemme 1/4 mile ahead of me. Asked
if he'd seen them, he of course hadn't. I suspect, or at least hope, as in
your case too, that the fighters had us and were just doing an exhuberant
buzz job. In any case, not very prudent or responsible of them.

I fly with a transponder and that has to be a help. I've got a ProxAlert R5
on order (www.proxalert.com), so if they're squawking, I'll have their
altitude, range and squawk code too. If their altitude is the same as mine,
with rapidly decreasing range, and I don't have joy on 'em, then like a
raptor approached by a power plane, they'll get to watch me do a wingover
and rather steep spoiler descent.

all the best,
--
bumper ZZ (reverse all after @)
"Dare to be different . . . circle in sink."

Because you were above 5000MSL what was your pressure setting on altimeter,
standard? You mentioned cold front, low pressure? Are you sure about your
altitude in standard setting? If fighters were at 6000 on standard setting
and also you but because you were using MSL setting just didn't know that?
These helps to understand (I hope) why you two were so close to each other
and it is good to go through why this could happen.
This sounds like I am blaming you, but I don't, as an outsider I am able to
see also probably mistakes you have done.

Ari

... and my own lack of vigilance.

Yeah right, Terry! You might be the most vigilant pilot I've known in my brief soaring (but much longer aviation) career. You were in the back seat five of my first eight flights, two hours and eleven minutes if my logbook is correct, and I learned more in those five flights than I can recount with credibility, including a whole lot about vigilance that hopefully will stick with me. If this can happen to you, it can happen to Captain Safety. A heads-up for all of us.

-ted

p.s. thanks for the nice tow this afternoon. The two hours and twenty-five minutes aloft is my new personal best, and I couldn't even get it up! (Uh, the landing gear on the Pegasus that is. Everything else was clear blue fine...)

(Terry Claussen) wrote in message m...
A lousy end to what was a beautiful day of soaring, thanks to the USMC
and my own lack of vigilance.

Some thoughts on this incident (and comments in subsequent posts):

If I hear a powerplane (any kind!) while cruising and don't see him -
My response is to IMMEDIATELY throw up a wing and pull a hard S-turn.
This does two things: It lets you check behind, where your greatest
threat is, and throws a much bigger visual target for the approaching
plane to see. And he is close enough to hear, he will probably see
you. This works very well for military jets, not so well for
airliners and bugsmashers, from personal experience.

At the altitudes we usually fly, fighters will usually be transiting
at relatively low speed (about 300 knots, perhaps 350). Down low (or
high), they will be going a lot faster (450 - 600 knots) but if you
are that low you are about to landout! But even at 350 knots, you
have time to hear and react to the sound of the approaching fighters
(this from personal experience).

Note I say "fighters" - there will almost always be at least two of
them, maybe more, so do not stop searching after finding one figher -
it's the wingman, not the flight lead, that is most likely to hit you
(because his attention is divided between maintaining formation and
clearing his flightpath). In the US most fighters will be either in
relatively close formation (easy to see both) or spread out 1 to 2
miles line abreast (hard to see both). And it probably isn't the one
that is closest to hitting you that you are going to pick up first,
since he will be closest to nose-on. The good news is that if either
figher sees you, he will warn the other to avoid you. Fighter pilots
look out the window a lot, it is actually something they train at all
the time. Don't count on that from airline or lightplane pilots,
though!

Airliners descending to land are a problem, since you absolutely
cannot hear them - you have to pick them up (since they will probably
not maneuver unless they get really exited!). Of course, they are big
and brightly painted, so are a bit easier to see.

When cruising, obviously it is most dangerous at the VFR hemispheric
altitudes, but at least you should have an idea where the threat is
coming from.

Finally, in the US our transition altitude is 18000ft, and since most
of us use the field elevation to set the altimeter (instead of calling
FSS), there is going to be some altimeter discrepancies - so you
really can't count on using altitude for close deconfliction.


Kirk

Do military aircraft utilize transponder signal based
collision avoidance systems?


At 15:18 02 February 2004, Kirk Stant wrote:
(Terry Claussen) wrote in message
news:...
A lousy end to what was a beautiful day of soaring,
thanks to the USMC
and my own lack of vigilance.

Some thoughts on this incident (and comments in subsequent
posts):

If I hear a powerplane (any kind!) while cruising and
don't see him -
My response is to IMMEDIATELY throw up a wing and pull
a hard S-turn.
This does two things: It lets you check behind, where
your greatest
threat is, and throws a much bigger visual target for
the approaching
plane to see. And he is close enough to hear, he will
probably see
you. This works very well for military jets, not so
well for
airliners and bugsmashers, from personal experience.

At the altitudes we usually fly, fighters will usually
be transiting
at relatively low speed (about 300 knots, perhaps 350).
Down low (or
high), they will be going a lot faster (450 - 600 knots)
but if you
are that low you are about to landout! But even at
350 knots, you
have time to hear and react to the sound of the approaching
fighters
(this from personal experience).

Note I say 'fighters' - there will almost always be
at least two of
them, maybe more, so do not stop searching after finding
one figher -
it's the wingman, not the flight lead, that is most
likely to hit you
(because his attention is divided between maintaining
formation and
clearing his flightpath). In the US most fighters
will be either in
relatively close formation (easy to see both) or spread
out 1 to 2
miles line abreast (hard to see both). And it probably
isn't the one
that is closest to hitting you that you are going to
pick up first,
since he will be closest to nose-on. The good news
is that if either
figher sees you, he will warn the other to avoid you.
Fighter pilots
look out the window a lot, it is actually something
they train at all
the time. Don't count on that from airline or lightplane
pilots,
though!

Airliners descending to land are a problem, since you
absolutely
cannot hear them - you have to pick them up (since
they will probably
not maneuver unless they get really exited!). Of course,
they are big
and brightly painted, so are a bit easier to see.

When cruising, obviously it is most dangerous at the
VFR hemispheric
altitudes, but at least you should have an idea where
the threat is
coming from.

Finally, in the US our transition altitude is 18000ft,
and since most
of us use the field elevation to set the altimeter
(instead of calling
FSS), there is going to be some altimeter discrepancies
- so you
really can't count on using altitude for close deconfliction.


Kirk

Transition Altitude in the USA is 18,000 ft., his altimeter setting would
have been QNH, or feet above sea level.

Chris Fleming


"Ari Paija" wrote in message
...
Because you were above 5000MSL what was your pressure setting on
altimeter,
standard? You mentioned cold front, low pressure? Are you sure about your
altitude in standard setting? If fighters were at 6000 on standard setting
and also you but because you were using MSL setting just didn't know that?
These helps to understand (I hope) why you two were so close to each other
and it is good to go through why this could happen.
This sounds like I am blaming you, but I don't, as an outsider I am able
to
see also probably mistakes you have done.

Ari

Gary Evans skrev den 2 Feb 2004
15:32:41 GMT:

Do military aircraft utilize transponder signal based
collision avoidance systems?

Yes, and this does not amuse controllers as they have a fast jet blasting
upwards at umpteen thousand fpm, setting off all the TCAS bells in the
traffic above the sector.

Cheers,
Fred

On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 15:15:18 UTC, (Kirk Stant)
wrote:

: But even at 350 knots, you
: have time to hear and react to the sound of the approaching fighters

Where I fly, we tend to meet fighters on the level while hill soaring.
They are following contours, so their paths are not nice predictable
straight lines. It's normally only possible to establish a probable
course half a mile away (they don't camouflage them for nothing) which
means about five seconds from impact. In that time, a glider can't
move much further than 500 feet. And since they're wiggling about, you
can only be reasonably sure of their course for about 2 seconds. Which
isn't long.

It's much easier when there is vertical separation, but then who
cares?

My personal best is a Tornado overtaking me on the same height and
about two wing spans (100 feet) away.

Ian


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