Flapped Glider Recommendations...

On Jan 9, 5:07*pm, Andreas Maurer wrote:

But trust me - you won't feel a difference between 36:1 and 38:1...
but you are going to feel the difference between 31:1 and 1:36. *vbg

Hey, I took a flight in the front seat of a DG-1000. Want to talk
about a differencein L/D? heheheheh...

Pure sink rates don't work - you also need to incorporate the airspeed
in your judgement since this decides about turn radius. Not to mention

Fair enough. This is also where flaps can help - moderate flap
application = lower speed thermalling; so as long as the drag isn't
too bad from the flap deployment you should have a net gain in climb
performance as you can make tighter thermal turns.

But my Russia stalls at around 39 kts indicated (I am 200 lbs and 6'
tall - a big American *sigh*)... The aircraft really likes a 45-
degree thermal turn at about 48 - 50 knots (min-sink speed is around
42kts so that jibes well with the load-factor of a 45-degree turn).

I think most of the gliders from the late 70's and early 80's have
similar stalling speeds - so as long as I stick to models that have
the good roll control and responsiveness that I seek, their ability to
have a tight thermalling circle should be adequate.

I promise: you are going to be blown away by their performance - and
you are not going to be able to judge which of them has the better
performances. Especially flapped ships need a couple of dozen of hours

Well I've flown my Russia AC-4 *alongside*:
Apis 13m (equal in climb, small but noticeable difference in height
per mile of cruise),
PIK-20B (could out-thermal it, but not keep up on glide),
1-34 (Russia was noticeably better all around; though not by a big
margin),
Chinook S 17m (I was slightly worse in climb, no comparison in
glide),
Open Cirrus (I had the slight edge in climb w/small circles; but the
damned Cirrus just defies gravity and lumbers along for miles),
Blanik L-13 (I was slightly better in glide, slightly better on a
ridge, and noticeably better in thermals),
DG-1000 (hahahahaha! "alongside" is almost a misnomer...)

Plus I have my Private Pilot's License in single-engine aircraft (got
that before starting in gliders) - so I'm familiar with flaps and that
stuff...

way to current (German) standard classgliders. You can get a
comparably young 55 for the same price as an aolder German ship.
Definitely worth a closer look.

Huh. Lot of varying opinions about that it seems! Some people seem
to think I could get one for around $30k, others think $50k - $60k...
interesting. Can I have one of you "cheaper" people call some SZD-55
owners and convince them to sell it for less? *grin*

Thanks all, don't be shy to pile on more feedback! :-)

--Noel

On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 17:48:11 -0800 (PST), "noel.wade"
wrote:

Fair enough. This is also where flaps can help - moderate flap
application = lower speed thermalling; so as long as the drag isn't
too bad from the flap deployment you should have a net gain in climb
performance as you can make tighter thermal turns.

Unfortunately it's not that way, at least not in the flapped gliders I
fly.

Usually you don't thermal a flapped glider significantly slower nor do
you climb better than a non-flapped ship.
The advantage is that you can ballast a flapped glider to higher wing
loadings (while still being able to thermal halfways slowly) to
increase your cruise speed - and of course the flatter polar at higher
speeds even without ballast.

In weak weather there's really no noticable performance difference
between flapped and non-flapped gliders - but the better the weather
(=higher wing loading and higher cruise speeds), the bigger the
difference.


But my Russia stalls at around 39 kts indicated (I am 200 lbs and 6'
tall - a big American *sigh*)...

LOL... I'm as heavy as you, but 7" taller...

I think most of the gliders from the late 70's and early 80's have
similar stalling speeds - so as long as I stick to models that have
the good roll control and responsiveness that I seek, their ability to
have a tight thermalling circle should be adequate.

Indeed.

Well I've flown my Russia AC-4 *alongside*:
Apis 13m (equal in climb, small but noticeable difference in height
per mile of cruise),

The Apis has pretty good numbers on paper, but I suspect that its low
wing loading makes penetration at higher speeds bad compared to a
ballasted Standard class glider.


Plus I have my Private Pilot's License in single-engine aircraft (got
that before starting in gliders) - so I'm familiar with flaps and that
stuff...

Not even similar, I'm afraid.
Perhaps I was spoiled by the ASW-20 that way my first flapped glider,
but at least in the 20 I had the feeling that I needed about 50 hours
until I felt I had mastered it halways because especially the 20 needs
pretty precise adjustment of the flap setting to the current speed,
wing- and g-loading, meaning that the left hand is nearly as busy as
the right one.
The LS-3 is easier to handle (wrong flap settings have less negative
influence on the performance), the optimum is probably the DG-300 and
LS-4... lol.

Think twice if you really need flaps on your glider (and if youre
willing to pay them) - if the weather is really weak in the area you
fly in, flaps won't give you a noticeable performance advantage.


Huh. Lot of varying opinions about that it seems! Some people seem
to think I could get one for around $30k, others think $50k - $60k...
interesting. Can I have one of you "cheaper" people call some SZD-55
owners and convince them to sell it for less? *grin*

The problem on oyur side of the pond is the very limited number of
available used gliders. Move to Europe. Plenty of really good used
gliders here.

Bye
Andreas

Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Jan 9, 2:42 am, "noel.wade" wrote:
Thanks Adam, but I'm not interested in a medium-performance metal
ship. The Jantar Standard 2 is a fine first ship; but its not enough
of a performance jump from my Russia to be an appealing choice.

I believe that my budget affords ships that are newer and have better
performance - whether they're standard-class or flapped. And I am
more interested in those options.

Appreciate it, though!

--Noel
Std Jantars are glass and strong. Consider the following world
record.

Speed over a triangular course of 100 km : 249.09 km/h

Date of flight: 01/12/2003
Pilot: Horacio MIRANDA (Argentina)
Course/place: Chos Malal (Argentina)

Glider: PZL-Bielsko SZD-48-1 Jantar Standard 2
Registered 'LVDPD'

Insanely fast. Must've been something like one of the "Power" online
tasks for Condor!


Shawn

I've been following this post with some interest as I used to own a
Russia AC-4c. I moved up to a Zuni II and also 1/2 of an LS-8. Last
year, I took a club member on a drag and drop. He flew my Zuni with
me in the LS-8. After a decent 200km flight, we were on a final glide
home. After 26 miles at 80-90 kts, the Zuni was 1000' lower than the
LS-8. So 5 times the price will get you a 1000' in 26 miles. The
Zuni will also thermal with a PW5. There is now another Zuni on the
field at Tucson. I really enjoy my Zuni.

Randy "AV8"

On Jan 10, 8:58*am, LOV2AV8 wrote:
I've been following this post with some interest as I used to own a
Russia AC-4c. *I moved up to a Zuni II and also 1/2 of an LS-8. *Last

Thanks, Randy!

As far as specs and performance and looks, I like the Zuni II. I just
really did not like the all-flying-tail coupled with the push/pull
stick arrangement. Plus, the flap crank-handle interfered with my
leg. :-/

I am in agreeance with you as well, that the large extra cost of newer
gliders only nets you a small performance gain. However, it does get
you a better surface finish (usually), probably a nicer trailer,
better cockpit safety & ergonomics, and other intangibles.

That's why I've set a budget, set certain benchmarks, and am looking
to maximize the glider I can get for that budget and with those
benchmarks (instead of purely looking for max performance, or purely
looking for the cheapest solution). :-) It makes things more
complicated; but also makes me a more happy owner in the end - or at
least that's the theory!!

Take care,

--Noel