WinPilot ADV & PRO 9.0b Flarm

Hi Marc,

The maps I've seen of the rollout of the ADS-B ground stations will be much
sooner than you imply.

And even without the ground stations a batch of gliders with ADS-B units
would see and avoid (hopefully) each other - similar to FLARM.

But I'm sure (sincerely) that you know more about this than I do. I hope
you'll join us for the meeting.

Paul Remde

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
...
Paul Remde wrote:
My dream is that is 1 to 2 years from now many glider pilots will be
voluntarily using low cost ADS-B transmitter/receiver units. They will
show nearby traffic where you are AND they will allow you to see nearby
traffic - not only traffic that has an ADS-B transmitter. If you are
near a radar controlled airport with ADS-B transmitting you would also
see all traffic that has a transponder because they broadcast that
information to ADS-B receivers - cool!

The situation is a bit more complicated than the dream, unfortunately. Two
aircraft equipped with ADS-B transceivers of the same type (UAT or 1090ES)
will detect each other when within proximity, right now, anywhere in the
US. The ability to obtain traffic advisories for aircraft equipped with
the other form of ADS-B, or using Mode C or S transponders, is dependent
on the existence of a network of ground stations. These ground stations
are already in place along the coast from New York down to Florida, in
Alaska, and a few other random places. The contracts to complete the
system were just awarded last fall, it will be 10+ years before all of the
ground stations are in place.

So, for the next few years, an ADS-B transceiver will be nothing more than
an expensive underutilized FLARM-like device in most areas of the US.
That said, if we don't start pushing for what we want, right now, we
probably won't be happy with what we can get when the network is complete
in 2020 or so...

Marc

2 years or 10 years means it's probably not a great idea to buy a Mode S
transponder. ADS-B is a great technology and the sooner it's available, the
better.

Bill D


"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:bZ3qj.17165$9j6.13971@attbi_s22...
Hi Marc,

The maps I've seen of the rollout of the ADS-B ground stations will be
much sooner than you imply.

And even without the ground stations a batch of gliders with ADS-B units
would see and avoid (hopefully) each other - similar to FLARM.

But I'm sure (sincerely) that you know more about this than I do. I hope
you'll join us for the meeting.

Paul Remde

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
...
Paul Remde wrote:
My dream is that is 1 to 2 years from now many glider pilots will be
voluntarily using low cost ADS-B transmitter/receiver units. They will
show nearby traffic where you are AND they will allow you to see nearby
traffic - not only traffic that has an ADS-B transmitter. If you are
near a radar controlled airport with ADS-B transmitting you would also
see all traffic that has a transponder because they broadcast that
information to ADS-B receivers - cool!

The situation is a bit more complicated than the dream, unfortunately.
Two aircraft equipped with ADS-B transceivers of the same type (UAT or
1090ES) will detect each other when within proximity, right now, anywhere
in the US. The ability to obtain traffic advisories for aircraft
equipped with the other form of ADS-B, or using Mode C or S transponders,
is dependent on the existence of a network of ground stations. These
ground stations are already in place along the coast from New York down
to Florida, in Alaska, and a few other random places. The contracts to
complete the system were just awarded last fall, it will be 10+ years
before all of the ground stations are in place.

So, for the next few years, an ADS-B transceiver will be nothing more
than an expensive underutilized FLARM-like device in most areas of the
US. That said, if we don't start pushing for what we want, right now, we
probably won't be happy with what we can get when the network is complete
in 2020 or so...

Marc

I didn't suggest that they couldn't use FLARM as a collision avoidance
aid, but if I had to take a guess, rules could come into play that might
prohibit the use of software that provides certain data that is derived
from FLARM or other products.

There is no doubt that FLARM is a great safety product, it's the extra
data that comes into play that is an issue with competitive advantage.
Specifically, precise location and climb rate.

One might even see pilots electing to NOT use FLARM simply because they
don't want other people leaching off them.



Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

I think we will see a lot of software and hardware in the near future that
will allow us to see the climb rates of gliders in our area. The rules
committee will have to figure out how to deal with that. I don't see how
they can tell a pilot not to use their favorite soaring software or their
FLARM (or similar device).

Telling them not to use their FLARM would be like asking for a lawsuit
should they get into an accident. I don't think any contest manager would
ever do that.

Also, it could be argued that seeing climb rates of nearby gliders is a
safety enhancement because it can help you avoid a landout - given than
landout is less safe then landing at an airport.

It will be very interesting to see how this develops.

Check out the image on my SeeYou page of the new FLARM radar. I think it is
really cool! But I'm a techno-nerd...
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/seeyou.htm

Certainly this is not much of an issue in the USA at this time because very
few gliders are using FLARM here. But in a year or 2 we may have low cost
ADS-B units that will offer the same functionality in SeeYou and other
software.

Like all new technologies I'm sure that some pilots will embrace it and
others will not want themselves or others to use it. But I'm pretty certain
that it is going to happen. I think it will increase the level of safety and
fun.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde

"Gary Emerson" wrote in message
...
Richard wrote:
WinPilot 9.0b Flarm

FLARM: Added ability to track several other gliders in the vicinity
that also carry FLARM on board. WinPilot can now show wisually the
position of the other gliders, their bearing, and also indicate
weather or not they are climbing, and if so, what their current climb
rate is.



Richard
www.craggyaero.com


Don't the rules prohibit any thermal detection system that has a range
beyond the wingtip of the glider?? Seems like any system that provides
location and climb rate is violating the INTENT of the rule.

I completely agree that proximity detection is a benefit to safety, but
I'll bet that unless the software programmers elect to limit the data that
could be used to a competitive advantage on their own that we'll
ultimately see new rules come into play that will force that requirement.

Gary Emerson wrote:

I didn't suggest that they couldn't use FLARM as a collision avoidance
aid, but if I had to take a guess, rules could come into play that might
prohibit the use of software that provides certain data that is derived
from FLARM or other products.

There is no doubt that FLARM is a great safety product, it's the extra
data that comes into play that is an issue with competitive advantage.
Specifically, precise location and climb rate.

One might even see pilots electing to NOT use FLARM simply because they
don't want other people leaching off them.


As far as I understand this some information can be turned off in
FLARM by appropriate privacy setting. In addidtion on can set FLARM so
that it randomly switches glider ID, so that "flight following" is not
that easy.

Some food for thought: GPS_LOG deals with leaching by recording in the
IGC file whether or not FLARM climb rate display is enabled. These
records are secured by file signature. Of course to use something like
that, IGC would have to give up on the loggers and go to PDA
implementation. No I do not want to start this discussion .

Cheers,
Henryk Birecki



Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

I think we will see a lot of software and hardware in the near future that
will allow us to see the climb rates of gliders in our area. The rules
committee will have to figure out how to deal with that. I don't see how
they can tell a pilot not to use their favorite soaring software or their
FLARM (or similar device).

Telling them not to use their FLARM would be like asking for a lawsuit
should they get into an accident. I don't think any contest manager would
ever do that.

Also, it could be argued that seeing climb rates of nearby gliders is a
safety enhancement because it can help you avoid a landout - given than
landout is less safe then landing at an airport.

It will be very interesting to see how this develops.

Check out the image on my SeeYou page of the new FLARM radar. I think it is
really cool! But I'm a techno-nerd...
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/seeyou.htm

Certainly this is not much of an issue in the USA at this time because very
few gliders are using FLARM here. But in a year or 2 we may have low cost
ADS-B units that will offer the same functionality in SeeYou and other
software.

Like all new technologies I'm sure that some pilots will embrace it and
others will not want themselves or others to use it. But I'm pretty certain
that it is going to happen. I think it will increase the level of safety and
fun.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde

"Gary Emerson" wrote in message
...
Richard wrote:
WinPilot 9.0b Flarm

FLARM: Added ability to track several other gliders in the vicinity
that also carry FLARM on board. WinPilot can now show wisually the
position of the other gliders, their bearing, and also indicate
weather or not they are climbing, and if so, what their current climb
rate is.



Richard
www.craggyaero.com


Don't the rules prohibit any thermal detection system that has a range
beyond the wingtip of the glider?? Seems like any system that provides
location and climb rate is violating the INTENT of the rule.

I completely agree that proximity detection is a benefit to safety, but
I'll bet that unless the software programmers elect to limit the data that
could be used to a competitive advantage on their own that we'll
ultimately see new rules come into play that will force that requirement.

European pilots and Flarm are very aware of the issues
regarding use of Flarm data in contests. Version 4
mandatory update software will be released at the end
of February and I guess it will include updates to
the privacy functionality.

John Galloway


At 09:06 06 February 2008, Henryk Birecki wrote:
Gary Emerson wrote:

I didn't suggest that they couldn't use FLARM as a
collision avoidance
aid, but if I had to take a guess, rules could come
into play that might
prohibit the use of software that provides certain
data that is derived
from FLARM or other products.

There is no doubt that FLARM is a great safety product,
it's the extra
data that comes into play that is an issue with competitive
advantage.
Specifically, precise location and climb rate.

One might even see pilots electing to NOT use FLARM
simply because they
don't want other people leaching off them.


As far as I understand this some information can be
turned off in
FLARM by appropriate privacy setting. In addidtion
on can set FLARM so
that it randomly switches glider ID, so that 'flight
following' is not
that easy.

Some food for thought: GPS_LOG deals with leaching
by recording in the
IGC file whether or not FLARM climb rate display is
enabled. These
records are secured by file signature. Of course to
use something like
that, IGC would have to give up on the loggers and
go to PDA
implementation. No I do not want to start this discussion
.

Cheers,
Henryk Birecki



Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

I think we will see a lot of software and hardware
in the near future that
will allow us to see the climb rates of gliders in
our area. The rules
committee will have to figure out how to deal with
that. I don't see how
they can tell a pilot not to use their favorite soaring
software or their
FLARM (or similar device).

Telling them not to use their FLARM would be like
asking for a lawsuit
should they get into an accident. I don't think any
contest manager would
ever do that.

Also, it could be argued that seeing climb rates of
nearby gliders is a
safety enhancement because it can help you avoid a
landout - given than
landout is less safe then landing at an airport.

It will be very interesting to see how this develops.

Check out the image on my SeeYou page of the new FLARM
radar. I think it is
really cool! But I'm a techno-nerd...
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/seeyou.htm

Certainly this is not much of an issue in the USA
at this time because very
few gliders are using FLARM here. But in a year or
2 we may have low cost
ADS-B units that will offer the same functionality
in SeeYou and other
software.

Like all new technologies I'm sure that some pilots
will embrace it and
others will not want themselves or others to use it.
But I'm pretty certain
that it is going to happen. I think it will increase
the level of safety and
fun.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde

'Gary Emerson' wrote in message
...
Richard wrote:
WinPilot 9.0b Flarm

FLARM: Added ability to track several other gliders
in the vicinity
that also carry FLARM on board. WinPilot can now show
wisually the
position of the other gliders, their bearing, and
also indicate
weather or not they are climbing, and if so, what
their current climb
rate is.



Richard
www.craggyaero.com


Don't the rules prohibit any thermal detection system
that has a range
beyond the wingtip of the glider?? Seems like any
system that provides
location and climb rate is violating the INTENT of
the rule.

I completely agree that proximity detection is a benefit
to safety, but
I'll bet that unless the software programmers elect
to limit the data that
could be used to a competitive advantage on their
own that we'll
ultimately see new rules come into play that will
force that requirement.

Richard,

Nice to have the new functionality, but have any of the outstanding
bugs in 8 and earlier versions been fixed, like the ones we have been
discussing here for some time?

Frank(TA)


On Feb 4, 3:27*pm, Richard wrote:
WinPilot 9.0b *Flarm

FLARM: Added ability to track several other gliders in the vicinity
that also carry FLARM on board. WinPilot can now show wisually the
position of the other gliders, their bearing, and also indicate
weather or not they are climbing, and if so, what their current climb
rate is.

Richardwww.craggyaero.com