ATC User Fees

But the Republicans have no more qualms about handouts to big business
than they have permitting oil drilling, logging, and mining in 1/3 of our
national forests as occurred last week.

I do not see that Democrat/Republican has anything to do with this
discussion.

--
Mike Flyin'8
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
http://flying.4alexanders.com

Larry Dighera wrote:

they have permitting oil drilling, logging, and mining in 1/3 of our
national forests as occurred last week.

Dilling, logging, and mining have *always* been permitted in the National
Forests. Much of the land there is private, also.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:IbQfe.4074$7G.487@trndny01...
Larry Dighera wrote:

they have permitting oil drilling, logging, and mining in 1/3 of our
national forests as occurred last week.

Dilling, logging, and mining have *always* been permitted in the National
Forests. Much of the land there is private, also.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

Much of the land in National Forests is private?


Mike
MU-2

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
[...]
We'll wind up being banned from major airports *and* have to pay user fees
on
top of that.

With the landing fees currently in effect at many large metro'
airports, GA is already effectively banned from their use.

Really? What's a "typical" landing fee at the airports you describe?

I haven't flown into the largest Class B airports in the US, but I've flown
into a couple of the smaller ones. Landing fees generally seem to run
around $50-100. Expensive, but not an insurmountable barrier. Someone in a
Cub would surely find that outrageous, but for those of us flying
high-performance aircraft long distances, an extra $50-100 isn't
intolerable, assuming there's a good reason to land at such an airport.

Are there airports with GA landing fees significantly higher than that?

Pete

Mike Rapoport wrote:

Much of the land in National Forests is private?

Privately owned. Yes.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

"Peter Duniho" wrote in
:

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
[...]
We'll wind up being banned from major airports *and* have to pay user
fees on
top of that.

With the landing fees currently in effect at many large metro'
airports, GA is already effectively banned from their use.

Really? What's a "typical" landing fee at the airports you describe?

I haven't flown into the largest Class B airports in the US, but I've
flown into a couple of the smaller ones. Landing fees generally seem
to run around $50-100. Expensive, but not an insurmountable barrier.
Someone in a Cub would surely find that outrageous, but for those of
us flying high-performance aircraft long distances, an extra $50-100
isn't intolerable, assuming there's a good reason to land at such an
airport.

Are there airports with GA landing fees significantly higher than
that?

Pete




It is NOT just the landing fees which can eat you alive. Many larger
airports (even class C) have a ramp fee. Some airports impose these ramp
fees even if you just drop/off or pick up a passenger.

I did an Angel Flight into SFO almost 3 years ago in an Arrow. The
landing fee was $74 and the minimum ramp fee was $33. IIRC, the ramp fee
was good for only 8 hours and then was something like $6 per hour after
that. Both fees were waived for Angel Flight.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:
The National Airspace System, being a nationwide resource, should be
government operated. For the government to abdicate responsibility
for our skies to corporate interests is irresponsible. But the
Republicans have no more qualms about handouts to big business than
they have permitting oil drilling, logging, and mining in 1/3 of our
national forests as occurred last week.

I suspect that there were many more Democrats pandering to big business
that Republicans over the last 50 years. The bottom line is that
politicians pander to those with the money, and big business donates to
whomever is in power, or has a good shot of gaining power, in the hopes
that they will be rewarded with kickbacks. It usually works. The last
time I looked, the combined wealth of the Democrats in the US Congress
exceeded that of the Republicans, but that's pretty much irrelevant
other than to dispel the myth that Republicans are rich and Democrats
are for the "middle class."

I'm all for using all of our natural resources, as long as they are open
to competition.

The entire issue of "public" and "private" with regards to aviation
plays out on a much smaller scale at the local airport. More
communities seem to be forming "airport authority" boards which are
basically controlled by commercial interests. The commercial interests
take over the administration of the airport, jack the rates up, slap on
some new restrictions intended to stifle the small guy who doesn't bring
in huge margins, and all of a sudden you have a declining light plane
population at an airport that was intended to be a public resource.
Usually, this is done in the name of "jobs for the region" or some such
nonsense that doesn't materialize. I'm sure there are success stories,
but I suspect that there are many more failures.



JKG

"Marty Shapiro" wrote in message
...
It is NOT just the landing fees which can eat you alive. Many larger
airports (even class C) have a ramp fee. Some airports impose these ramp
fees even if you just drop/off or pick up a passenger.

True. And I am aware of the other fees. Still, even for SFO the total cost
only comes to a little over $100. Assuming one has a good reason for
wanting to land there as opposed to one of the other nearby airports, the
$100 doesn't seem prohibitive to me.

I flew into Oakland a couple of years ago, to stay downtown in San
Francisco. Between the FBO's shuttle and public transportation (train), it
wasn't terrible, but we DID take a cab back, and I could easily see someone
deciding it was worth $100 if their destination was more convenient to SFO
than OAK.

What I'm wondering if is there are actually airports who charge as much as
$250-$500 for light GA aircraft (which I *would* consider prohibitive).

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in
:

"Marty Shapiro" wrote in message
...
It is NOT just the landing fees which can eat you alive. Many
larger
airports (even class C) have a ramp fee. Some airports impose these
ramp fees even if you just drop/off or pick up a passenger.

True. And I am aware of the other fees. Still, even for SFO the
total cost only comes to a little over $100. Assuming one has a good
reason for wanting to land there as opposed to one of the other nearby
airports, the $100 doesn't seem prohibitive to me.

I flew into Oakland a couple of years ago, to stay downtown in San
Francisco. Between the FBO's shuttle and public transportation
(train), it wasn't terrible, but we DID take a cab back, and I could
easily see someone deciding it was worth $100 if their destination was
more convenient to SFO than OAK.

What I'm wondering if is there are actually airports who charge as
much as $250-$500 for light GA aircraft (which I *would* consider
prohibitive).

Pete





The actual cost for a stay of more than a few hours at SFO is far more
than $100. The $103 only covers the first 8 hours at SFO. Each hour after
that would have cost $6. Your costs for one full day's parking + landing
fee would have been $203. Add $144 for each additional full day. I think
you will agree this reaches your "prohibitive" numbers pretty quickly.

Did you buy fuel? Currently, 100LL is $1.22 per gallon more at SFO
than at OAK, comparing full-serve to full-serve.

For a comparison, I looked at The Port Authority of New York and New
Jersey's web pages. The current charge to land at JFK, LGA, or EWR for a
small aircraft is only $25.00 but there is a $100 surcharge if you land OR
takeoff between 8 AM and 9 PM at LGA, 3 PM and 10 PM at JFK, and 8 to 10 AM
or 5 to 10 PM at EWR. Public ramp parking is $25 per 8 hours.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

On Mon, 9 May 2005 16:30:59 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
wrote in
::

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .
[...]
We'll wind up being banned from major airports *and* have to pay user fees
on
top of that.

With the landing fees currently in effect at many large metro'
airports, GA is already effectively banned from their use.

Really? What's a "typical" landing fee at the airports you describe?

I haven't flown into the largest Class B airports in the US, but I've flown
into a couple of the smaller ones. Landing fees generally seem to run
around $50-100. Expensive, but not an insurmountable barrier. Someone in a
Cub would surely find that outrageous, but for those of us flying
high-performance aircraft long distances, an extra $50-100 isn't
intolerable, assuming there's a good reason to land at such an airport.

I understand your feelings about landing fees. It is a subjective
judgment after all.

Are there airports with GA landing fees significantly higher than that?

You'll find some information about landing fees at these links:

http://www.dot.state.ak.us/faiiap/pdfs/feesched.pdf#search='airport%20landing%20fee%20sch edule'
http://web.nbaa.org/public/news/pr/2...050106-001.php
http://www.flywichita.org/pdf/FeeChargesSchedule.pdf#search='airport%20landing%2 0fee%20schedule'
http://www.yxe.ca/about/pdf/Fees.pdf
http://www.ci.palm-springs.ca.us/city_clerk/2004%20COMP%20FEE%20SCH.pdf#search='airport%20land ing%20fee%20schedule'
http://www.portseattle.org/downloads...Tariff2-04.doc

More he
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