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Looking for pictures of motorglider failures



 
 
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  #21  
Old December 8th 19, 09:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Nadler
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Posts: 1,610
Default Looking for pictures of motorglider failures

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 2:15:07 PM UTC-5, Jonathon May wrote:
At 18:47 08 December 2019, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Some where there is a photo of a propellor blade sticking out of a
duo discus wing.It was part of the AD sent out after a hub failure left
the blades coming off.


IIRC, more recent is the blade sticking out of a DG-1000 wing.
Different style hub (conventional 2-blade prop).
Anyone have that picture?

  #22  
Old December 8th 19, 10:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tom BravoMike
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Posts: 266
Default Looking for pictures of motorglider failures

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:01:48 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Motor in a sailplane = a complicated abomination, ......

An efficient light power plane utilizing sailplane aerodynamics = beautiful engineering.,,,,


As the Italians put it: Donna e moto amore e dolore...
  #23  
Old December 8th 19, 10:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Duster[_2_]
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Posts: 198
Default Looking for pictures of motorglider failures

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 3:38:04 PM UTC-6, Tom BravoMike wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:01:48 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Motor in a sailplane = a complicated abomination, ......

An efficient light power plane utilizing sailplane aerodynamics = beautiful engineering.,,,,


As the Italians put it: Donna e moto amore e dolore...


Well, for one, my spouse has never failed me (and she's prettier than any Rotax, Solo or FES engine).
  #24  
Old December 8th 19, 11:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 380
Default Looking for pictures of motorglider failures

Well, for one, my spouse has never failed me (and she's prettier than any Rotax, Solo or FES engine).

I hear ya there Duster, and in response to someones post earlier, I never denegrated the UTILITY of a motor glider, just said they are an abomination lol. I get the same utility without tying up 100,000k in finances. As for a tow plane, not needed, my truck and 1800 ft of spectra do just fine but thats if your not afraid to thermal below 1,000ft. And it costs peanuts.
  #25  
Old December 9th 19, 02:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
AS
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Posts: 653
Default Looking for pictures of motorglider failures

He must have been a glider pilot or at least, he showed great aptitude and someone should have given him his glider-wings!

Uli
'AS'

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:38:56 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
HERE
is an example of a jet sustainer failure to start.Â* Good glide path
control, but I thought he may have waited a bit longer than required
before dumping his ballast.




On 12/8/2019 9:59 AM, Dave Nadler
wrote:



On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 11:46:36 AM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:


No one has mentioned jets? They can be unreliable to get started, and
there's been uncontained blade failures. Even had the engine depart the
A/C.


Interesting, I've heard of numerous failures to start and failure to climb,
but not uncontained blade failures or engine departing AC...





--

Dan, 5J


  #26  
Old December 9th 19, 05:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,939
Default Looking for pictures of motorglider failures

wrote on 12/8/2019 9:47 AM:
I remember an engine that would not extend caused by a spark plug wire stuck to the muffler! Apparently the engine had been retracted without a sufficient cooling period and spark plug wire came to rest on the muffler and melted the insulation that turned to glue when it cooled down! Oddball malfunction for sure. Also heard rumors about pilots forgetting to add oil to the fuel in 2 stroke engines and another guy that accidentally added oil twice to the same batch of fuel. Then there was the pilot that leaned out his engine for peak power and melted a cylinder on takeoff. Seems to me that electric motors are the best way forward, but self launching with a motor in the nose gives very little prop clearance. The JETA looks promising.


The 15M GP15 Jeta does look good; the 13.5 M category has the GP14, Silent
Electro (an FES) and miniLAK-FES, all appearing capable of good XC flying; and if
you gotta have 18M, the new AS34 has deliveries available for next spring,
according to the Schleicher dealer. The GP and AS gliders are "motor on a stick",
so no problems with prop clearance.

None of these has the powered range of a gasoline powered self-launcher, but 25
years of flying my ASH26E tells me the 100km powered range most have is enough for
all but a small percentage of my self-retrieves, and the 100km range would greatly
shorten the retrieve by trailer or aerotow.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #27  
Old December 9th 19, 07:25 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 1,439
Default Looking for pictures of motorglider failures

On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 9:27:51 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
I've been persuaded to give an OSTIV talk about motorglider safety issues,
in particular propulsion system failures. I'm going to discuss
common failures, the systemic reasons this stuff has happened and
WILL CONTINUE to happen, and some ideas for systemic improvements.

I'm looking for pictures and/or documentation of failures, for example:
- failed position switches (ie limit switches, prop position sensor)
- failed fuel systems (improper hoses, routing, leak sources, etc)
- failed structural components (cracked exhaust, mounts, pylons, etc)
- failed drive belts
- failed electrical connectors
- failed motor controller
- failed electronics
and anything else you might happen to have.

Ideally a good photo, make and model, approximate date, brief description..
Please email to me offline.

Thanks in advance for the help!
Best Regards, Dave

PS: Probably time to redo this study, but situation isn't that much changed:
http://www.nadler.com/public/DeRese_...ilplanes.p df


If this talk is to be about safety issues, it shouldn't be concerned with maintenance issues. Safety issues are things that affect the outcome of a flight - if a maintenance issue occurs that prevents the flight from occurring, there is no safety issue.

An in-flight fire is definitely a safety issue; a dead battery that keeps you from starting your engine is not. I have experienced both; examples include:

Maintenance:
Hydrolocking due to unknown contamination in the fuel system.
Flywheel screws that jam engine operation because of insufficient locking adhesive.
Drive belt that fails during engine starting.
Engine controller failure due to unknown causes.

Flight safety:
Mast mounting bolt failure due to unknown causes resulting in loss of all power (propulsion failure followed by uneventful landing).
Fuel system fire due to unknown causes (propulsion failure followed by uneventful landing).
Decompression valve plug working out due to missing washer (propulsion failure followed by uneventful landing).

The truth is that very few true flight safety issues have occurred, perhaps on a par with towplane engine failures. The more likely issue is engine failure to start with a bad outlanding outcome. And, I suspect these are dwarfed by all of the fatal stall/spins trying to do a low save (one occurred recently).

Tom
  #28  
Old December 9th 19, 11:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BG[_4_]
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Posts: 56
Default Looking for pictures of motorglider failures

On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 9:27:51 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
I've been persuaded to give an OSTIV talk about motorglider safety issues,
in particular propulsion system failures. I'm going to discuss
common failures, the systemic reasons this stuff has happened and
WILL CONTINUE to happen, and some ideas for systemic improvements.

I'm looking for pictures and/or documentation of failures, for example:
- failed position switches (ie limit switches, prop position sensor)
- failed fuel systems (improper hoses, routing, leak sources, etc)
- failed structural components (cracked exhaust, mounts, pylons, etc)
- failed drive belts
- failed electrical connectors
- failed motor controller
- failed electronics
and anything else you might happen to have.

Ideally a good photo, make and model, approximate date, brief description..
Please email to me offline.

Thanks in advance for the help!
Best Regards, Dave

PS: Probably time to redo this study, but situation isn't that much changed:
http://www.nadler.com/public/DeRese_...ilplanes.p df


In the late 80's a DG 400 taking off from El Tiro lost his prop after the bolts sheared off. It was concluded the wooden prop had shrunk and the bolts were free to move. It happened about 1000AGL, those of us who were watching heard the engine rev really high then a shut down followed by call on the radio for a emergency landing. The prop walked down the wing hitting it three times, the last hit near the end went through the top and bottoms skins. All was OK on landing.

DR Jack's ASW 26e had a fire in the engine bay that nearly burnt the tall boom off. A belt came apart and cut a fuel line. He stayed with the plane till landing. As I was in the shop, the repair people were amazed it did not break off, the composited was completely burned through in most places.

My worse events in my DG 800b were a failure of the uphaul motor so I could not retract the engine and second was a contamination in the fuel line after they were replaced. Debris kept the needle valve open so the engine was flooding on a air restart. Using full throttle it would run, preventing a landout

BG
  #29  
Old December 10th 19, 07:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,439
Default Looking for pictures of motorglider failures

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 2:45:07 PM UTC-8, BG wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 9:27:51 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
I've been persuaded to give an OSTIV talk about motorglider safety issues,
in particular propulsion system failures. I'm going to discuss
common failures, the systemic reasons this stuff has happened and
WILL CONTINUE to happen, and some ideas for systemic improvements.

I'm looking for pictures and/or documentation of failures, for example:
- failed position switches (ie limit switches, prop position sensor)
- failed fuel systems (improper hoses, routing, leak sources, etc)
- failed structural components (cracked exhaust, mounts, pylons, etc)
- failed drive belts
- failed electrical connectors
- failed motor controller
- failed electronics
and anything else you might happen to have.

Ideally a good photo, make and model, approximate date, brief description.
Please email to me offline.

Thanks in advance for the help!
Best Regards, Dave

PS: Probably time to redo this study, but situation isn't that much changed:
http://www.nadler.com/public/DeRese_...ilplanes.p df


In the late 80's a DG 400 taking off from El Tiro lost his prop after the bolts sheared off. It was concluded the wooden prop had shrunk and the bolts were free to move. It happened about 1000AGL, those of us who were watching heard the engine rev really high then a shut down followed by call on the radio for a emergency landing. The prop walked down the wing hitting it three times, the last hit near the end went through the top and bottoms skins. All was OK on landing.

DR Jack's ASW 26e had a fire in the engine bay that nearly burnt the tall boom off. A belt came apart and cut a fuel line. He stayed with the plane till landing. As I was in the shop, the repair people were amazed it did not break off, the composited was completely burned through in most places..

My worse events in my DG 800b were a failure of the uphaul motor so I could not retract the engine and second was a contamination in the fuel line after they were replaced. Debris kept the needle valve open so the engine was flooding on a air restart. Using full throttle it would run, preventing a landout

BG


Dr Jack's in-flight fire was the scariest incident I have heard of. Does anyone know if he shut off fuel after the start of the fire?

Tom
  #30  
Old December 11th 19, 05:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
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Posts: 2,099
Default Looking for pictures of motorglider failures

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 11:48:33 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 2:45:07 PM UTC-8, BG wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 9:27:51 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
I've been persuaded to give an OSTIV talk about motorglider safety issues,
in particular propulsion system failures. I'm going to discuss
common failures, the systemic reasons this stuff has happened and
WILL CONTINUE to happen, and some ideas for systemic improvements.

I'm looking for pictures and/or documentation of failures, for example:
- failed position switches (ie limit switches, prop position sensor)
- failed fuel systems (improper hoses, routing, leak sources, etc)
- failed structural components (cracked exhaust, mounts, pylons, etc)
- failed drive belts
- failed electrical connectors
- failed motor controller
- failed electronics
and anything else you might happen to have.

Ideally a good photo, make and model, approximate date, brief description.
Please email to me offline.

Thanks in advance for the help!
Best Regards, Dave

PS: Probably time to redo this study, but situation isn't that much changed:
http://www.nadler.com/public/DeRese_...ilplanes.p df


In the late 80's a DG 400 taking off from El Tiro lost his prop after the bolts sheared off. It was concluded the wooden prop had shrunk and the bolts were free to move. It happened about 1000AGL, those of us who were watching heard the engine rev really high then a shut down followed by call on the radio for a emergency landing. The prop walked down the wing hitting it three times, the last hit near the end went through the top and bottoms skins. All was OK on landing.

DR Jack's ASW 26e had a fire in the engine bay that nearly burnt the tall boom off. A belt came apart and cut a fuel line. He stayed with the plane till landing. As I was in the shop, the repair people were amazed it did not break off, the composited was completely burned through in most places.

My worse events in my DG 800b were a failure of the uphaul motor so I could not retract the engine and second was a contamination in the fuel line after they were replaced. Debris kept the needle valve open so the engine was flooding on a air restart. Using full throttle it would run, preventing a landout

BG


Dr Jack's in-flight fire was the scariest incident I have heard of. Does anyone know if he shut off fuel after the start of the fire?

Tom


Haven't there been 3-4 Stemme in-flight fires world wide?

Frank
 




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