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#1
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To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...
Our club has a Piper Pawnee 235hp in excellent condition.
We just spent $35000 five years ago to completely overhaul her...new fabric, new engine, anything that needed to be replaced was... Heres the rub...we are in the middle of a new two place acquisition with the club making a decision about getting a new two place intermediate performance. We were about to drop the hammer when a very vocal minority raised the issue of PAWNEE needing to be replaced citing extreme maintenance cost (???) and inability to get parts. He/She cited the local aero repair facility as his/her source of information...Many of us just dont see this as a problem. The replacement that was cited was a Husky 180HP...I just dont see the reasoning of such a switch...I surely would rather two a heavier two place with a proven performer with 235 hp vs a 180... What say you? Discuss...should we scrap the Pawnee in favor of a Husky? Beach |
#2
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To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...
We do not seem to have any problems getting Pawnee Parts.
What are the "extreme maint costs"? and how could those costs be reduced with a more expensive to purchase Husky? Do they remember the cost to rebuild from 5 years ago? Not to be repeated soon. You just put $35K into the Pawnee, does it have the wing attach points STC? Any reason why you did not up the HP to 250HP on rebuild available via STC? After 5 years, (based on our club) you are about 1000-1200 hours into the engine. Are you facing a rebuild soon or do you expect it to go to TBO??.. that's 4 more years. Hopefully you have been "paying yourself" and have a separate "engine fund". Everyone is facing the "horizontal attach points" AD that was released this summer. You've got 1000 flying hours to fix it, if you find no problems on regular inspections. We estimate about $2000-$2500 for that AD. We average 12 gph in tow operations with a 250HP Pawnee, I'm guessing that 180HP Husky will be about 9-10gph, or at $4/gal, about $12 per hour cheaper to operate... the 200HP (new at about $200K) will run 10-12gph. But now lets look at the cost of insuring a $150-$200K Husky vice a $35K Pawnee. fuhgetaboutit. Someone mentioned the 200HP Husky, I'm sure it's a great tow bird, but you may loose useful load. Sure it's nice having a two seat tow for training purposes. We have a friend with a Scout and tow hook. We train tow pilots in that and "graduate" them into the Pawnee. Keep the Pawnee, if your flying field can support a winch, get one. BT "Travis Beach" wrote in message ... Our club has a Piper Pawnee 235hp in excellent condition. We just spent $35000 five years ago to completely overhaul her...new fabric, new engine, anything that needed to be replaced was... Heres the rub...we are in the middle of a new two place acquisition with the club making a decision about getting a new two place intermediate performance. We were about to drop the hammer when a very vocal minority raised the issue of PAWNEE needing to be replaced citing extreme maintenance cost (???) and inability to get parts. He/She cited the local aero repair facility as his/her source of information...Many of us just dont see this as a problem. The replacement that was cited was a Husky 180HP...I just dont see the reasoning of such a switch...I surely would rather two a heavier two place with a proven performer with 235 hp vs a 180... What say you? Discuss...should we scrap the Pawnee in favor of a Husky? Beach |
#3
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To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...
Our club runs a pair of 235 Pawnees (a "D" with the full Hutch =
conversion and a stock "C" model). We also tow with a L-19 Bird Dog. = Another club I teach for runs a 260 hp Pawnee with the constant speed = prop and a third club in New England runs a pair of 235s also. I think = Caesar Creek also runs Pawnees as does Bermuda High. There are several = at Boulder CO and one nice one at Salida. All Pawnees have had a hard = life before they came to be tow planes and it's pretty easy to spend = enough on an engine overhaul, a fabric recover, and the attach point = AD/STC so that you've got more into the plane than any stock Pawnee is = worth. There are a few parts that are hard to find but an experienced = mechanic can usually work around those. We tend to burn through = starters and brake pads - but most tow planes do. The solo checkout is = not a problem - they fly real honest and and are not hard to land, but = the inability to do dual practice towing would make me not want to use = it as my sole towplane. I've towed behind (but not piloted) the Husky = at both Mifflin & Albert Lea - and it does a credible job as a = towplane. I would only be concerned about the high initial cost and the = insurance costs. It's a little like the price difference between an old = beater pick up truck and a spiffy new one. If you can afford the new one = fine. If not, fly & fix your Pawnee. Roy B. |
#4
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To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...
On Oct 15, 8:19 pm, Roy Bourgeois
wrote: Our club runs a pair of 235 Pawnees (a "D" with the full Hutch = conversion and a stock "C" model). We also tow with a L-19 Bird Dog. = Another club I teach for runs a 260 hp Pawnee with the constant speed = prop and a third club in New England runs a pair of 235s also. I think = Caesar Creek also runs Pawnees as does Bermuda High. There are several = at Boulder CO and one nice one at Salida. All Pawnees have had a hard = life before they came to be tow planes and it's pretty easy to spend = enough on an engine overhaul, a fabric recover, and the attach point = AD/STC so that you've got more into the plane than any stock Pawnee is = worth. There are a few parts that are hard to find but an experienced = mechanic can usually work around those. We tend to burn through = starters and brake pads - but most tow planes do. The solo checkout is = not a problem - they fly real honest and and are not hard to land, but = the inability to do dual practice towing would make me not want to use = it as my sole towplane. I've towed behind (but not piloted) the Husky = at both Mifflin & Albert Lea - and it does a credible job as a = towplane. I would only be concerned about the high initial cost and the = insurance costs. It's a little like the price difference between an old = beater pick up truck and a spiffy new one. If you can afford the new one = fine. If not, fly & fix your Pawnee. Roy B. A log history of tow plane usage. The Husky is designed to carry a load. When flown empty the cg is too far forward, needing up elevator to maintain tow attitude...pure drag. I've flown them and towed behind them. For the price of a new one, buy 4 more Pawnees. Wing loading, Hp to wing loading climb over obstruction. Climb at high density altitude, Pilot visability...rugged structure, easy of flying. So many things favor the Pawnee... Parts have not been a serious problem. They use so many common parts of other Piper designs. PMA parts are readily available. If you want to sell, call me. Fred |
#5
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To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...
Why is it only old Pawnee vs. new Husky? Are there not used efficient
180hp tugs available in the US? Dan |
#6
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To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...
Dan G wrote:
Why is it only old Pawnee vs. new Husky? Are there not used efficient 180hp tugs available in the US? I was up at Milfield with my Libelle a week ago, where they run three tow planes: 150 Pawnee, 180 Supercub, 235 Pawnee. I couldn't see much difference between the Supercub and the 235 Pawnee but the 150 Pawnee had a much slower climb rate than either of the others: more like my club's 160hp Rallye. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | |
#7
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To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...
Nobody's mentioned the Scout (Bellanca 8GCBC), with a 180 HP mill
(fixed or constant speed props available). It kinda' sounds like the club complainer just wants a two-seater to carry a sightseeing companion -- er, I mean a student tug driver. It would seem to me that a Scout is roughly equivalent to a Husky, at less cost, perhaps. Another consideration: can you run auto gas in the 235? I've towed with a Pawnee burning auto gas -- worked great, even towing watered up glass birds (1100 lbs takeoff weight) at high density altitude (Lone Pine in July). I have fond memories of towing with that tug, despite the fact it's one of very few airplanes that have tried to kill me (an exhaust stack broke off INSIDE the cowl...exciting day, some anesthesia -- 3 bloody mary's -- required). I've towed banners with 8GCBC's. Banners are far less dangerous to tow pilots than student glider pilots, but I think a Scout would work fine. It's an honest airplane, though the extra gear length and span (compared to its Citabria and Decathalon siblings) make it much more prone to ground looping. The Pawnee has much nicer handling qualities than the Scout (sorry, never flown a Husky). I've also towed with a CallAir A-9, and it's honest, but not as lithe as a Pawnee (with the same engine). They're all covered with fabric, so that liability exists for all three. They're all taildraggers -- so that's equal, regardless of whether you consider that a liability or an asset (I vote for asset). The only drawback I see is that the Pawnee only has one seat. I still concurr with some of the other respondents: regardless of the fact that you've got $35k invested in the Pawnee, KEEP IT, buy the glider, and tell the Husky proponents to go buy their own. -Pete #309 |
#8
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To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...
We have towed with 180HP Scout.. does not compare to 235HP Pawnee
We sold the Scout and bought the Pawnee, we tow from 3000ft MSL field with 110F summer temps BT "Dan G" wrote in message oups.com... Why is it only old Pawnee vs. new Husky? Are there not used efficient 180hp tugs available in the US? Dan |
#9
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To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...
We have a 180HP Scout with a fixed pitch climb prop. We have found it
adequate for our needs, even when we fly out of Mackay, ID (5,900' MSL) during our August regatta. (http://www.soaridaho.com/photogaller...006/index.html) Wayne HP-14 "6F" http://www.soaridaho.com/ "BT" wrote in message ... We have towed with 180HP Scout.. does not compare to 235HP Pawnee We sold the Scout and bought the Pawnee, we tow from 3000ft MSL field with 110F summer temps BT "Dan G" wrote in message oups.com... Why is it only old Pawnee vs. new Husky? Are there not used efficient 180hp tugs available in the US? Dan |
#10
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To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...
On Oct 16, 8:55 pm, "Wayne Paul" wrote:
We have a 180HP Scout with a fixed pitch climb prop. We have found it adequate for our needs, even when we fly out of Mackay, ID (5,900' MSL) during our August regatta. (http://www.soaridaho.com/photogaller...006/index.html) Wayne HP-14 "6F"http://www.soaridaho.com/ "BT" wrote in message I don't see any two-seater in the gallery photos. Anyone flying with water there? We had a 180hp Scout at 5500msl. It was very marginal on hot days with water or heavy two-seaters and we used two hours fuel only as full fuel was too heavy. Fuel tanks had recurring leaks. The wood spar AD required extensive recurring inspections (there were metal spar retrofit wings produced). Complete wiring harness was replaced. We also had a U/C strut break, which took out the prop, engine, wing tip, and horizontal, and availability. Never quite the same after repairs. The Scout averaged $1000/month in upkeep and inspections at commercial rates. Despite several objections, we replaced it with a Pawnee 235D, later updated with the 250STC. Pawnee was not without its problems. We looked at 40 Pawnees and went for what we considered the best available on our budget. In retrospect we should have budgeted about $10K more and considered a few more options. Plan on buying the Pawnee a second time in the first 3-4 years until you get it golden. IMVHO, no one sells a really good tow plane at an average price. Cost aside, we've had high availability and get good performance thanks to good management and tow pilot procedures. The 250STC is worth it. IIRC, a Pawnee (with transponder) was reported towing well above it's advertised operational ceiling this past summer on a really high tow. I think our's, also transponder equipped, has been to 11,500msl a couple of times on tow and still climbing okay. 180hp Scouts with metal spars are still being built. $132,900 with constant speed prop. Probably a good choice for all around towing at sites 3000MSL., that is, far more than adequate. Frank Whiteley |
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