Airplane pilots don't bother looking out...

"Flying over the white cliffs of Dover, the two pilots of a Gulfstream
450 jet keep their eyes glued to a flight-deck display, ignoring the
almost cloudless sky over the southern coast of England on their
descent to a nearby runway."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...3vk_QD9H43NV80

I wonder how prevalent this attitude is outside of airsports and "low
end" general aviation?

So for us "peasants", the option is spend huge sums to install IFR
certificated electronics in order to be seen, or hope these guys
sometimes look out the window. And if they don't, and there's an
accident, who will get the "blame" regardless of right of way rules.

Imagine if we had some non certificated equipment that provides a
"crude" electronic position of say, +/- 1,000'. Then these guys would
get an alert, and just maybe look out the window.

-Tom

On 7/22/2010 7:23 PM, 5Z wrote:
"Flying over the white cliffs of Dover, the two pilots of a Gulfstream
450 jet keep their eyes glued to a flight-deck display, ignoring the
almost cloudless sky over the southern coast of England on their
descent to a nearby runway."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...3vk_QD9H43NV80

I wonder how prevalent this attitude is outside of airsports and "low
end" general aviation?

So for us "peasants", the option is spend huge sums to install IFR
certificated electronics in order to be seen, or hope these guys
sometimes look out the window. And if they don't, and there's an
accident, who will get the "blame" regardless of right of way rules.

Imagine if we had some non certificated equipment that provides a
"crude" electronic position of say, +/- 1,000'. Then these guys would
get an alert, and just maybe look out the window.


I have one of those non-IFR certificated thingies already: a
transponder. It's kept the fast expensive stuff away from me for 8 years
now ;-)

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Or, at least get a PCAS - for about £420 sterling or I suppose about
$600 US Dollars. They still won't know you are there, but you will
then get an alert to their transponder if they have one.

Chris N.

On Jul 22, 7:23*pm, 5Z wrote:

I wonder how prevalent this attitude is outside of airsports and "low
end" general aviation?

Very!

I have worked in this industry for many years, have been involved in a
lot a new development programs, and have spent many hours in flight
test. It is my observation that the better the flight deck
instrumentation the less time crews spend looking outside for
traffic. The exception to that is for HUD equipped aircraft but now,
for biz jets, the IPFD with synthetic vision puts more info head down
than head up so the bias is back inside again.

Many of the pilots flying this stuff are unaware that aircraft without
transponders are sharing the airspace with them and rely almost
completely on TCAS and ATC traffic calls.

You will be less likely to be run down by a FedEx widebody and they
are slowly equipping that fleet with HUD and FLIR and those aircraft
do not have the head down distraction of synthetic vision. At least
one pilot is likely to be looking outside using the HUD.

Fair or not the burden of collision avoidance rests with the glider
pilot.

Andy

From the military aviation side it's a little better, since mil
aircrew are trained to look outside for threats - and a glider can
kill you almost as effectively as a SAM! Plus, on the fighter side,
most have onboard air-to-air radar (which can detect gliders most of
the time, depending on speed over the ground) and transponder
interrogators (which unfortunately are not continuous like TCAS).
Transports/tankers/bomber are more like commercial jets, I would
imagine most have TCAS, and the newer ones (C-17, B-1/2) have HUDs.

What scares me more than the big jets (which are relatively easy to
see, and tend to fly predictable routes - and have TCAS) is the "fund
manager in a Cirrus". Beautiful glass cockpit, trophy wife in the
right seat, laptop open getting last minute work done on way to next
meeting...yeah, like he is looking out the window! And he is right
down in our altitudes. He likely has his transponder on, so PCAS will
help, but he may be VFR so your transponder may not.

Or the old guy in a beat up Tripacer, VFR, not talking or squawking to
anybody, and a windshield so covered in bugs and bird droppings he
can't see anything anyway.

IMO, PCAS is minimum equipment, then xponder as soon as can afford.
And use the attitude motorcycles riders have had to use for a long
time - plan on the other guy NOT seeing you!

Cheers!

Kirk

Given that, isn't flying without a transponder akin to russian
roulette? Avoiding a collision with traffic flying 3 or 4 times
faster than you is going to be quite difficult even if you do see him.

The old power consumption argument against transponders has gone
away. The current Trig unit is low power and it is small. It should
be in every glider that is flying where there is fast traffic. As I
understand it, the Trig unit also serves as the ADS-B transmit out
function, so the investment won't be lost. Furthermove, as others
have pointed out on RAS, you have to have a transponder to get the
TCAS benefit into the foreseeable future.

Consider that there may be 200 passengers involved and consider the
impact on soaring when a glider takes down an airliner.

Steve Koerner wrote:
Given that, isn't flying without a transponder akin to russian
roulette?

If that gun has 1,000,000 chambers but only one bullet, you spin it for
randomness, and you pull the trigger once an hour while in flight, then
yes, the probability that you die from shooting yourself appears to be
about the same as dying in a midair collision.

You're about 50 to 100 times more likely to die from other flight
accidents.

If that gun has 1,000,000 chambers but only one bullet, you spin it for
randomness, and you pull the trigger once an hour while in flight,


OK, Jim. I don't know where you got your numbers but lets run them
out...

Roughly, there is perhaps 5000 glider pilots in the US doing say 50
hours per year. So your million to one proposition might not be so
hot if the statistical result is a collision with an airliner every
four years. We need to get into the ten million to one zone or
better and that is probably what widespread use of transponder will
accomplish. Thank you for helping me make my point.

On Jul 23, 1:15*pm, Steve Koerner wrote:
If that gun has 1,000,000 chambers but only one bullet, you spin it for
randomness, and you pull the trigger once an hour while in flight,

OK, Jim. *I don't know where you got your numbers but lets run them
out...

Roughly, there is perhaps 5000 glider pilots in the US doing say 50
hours per year. * So your million to one proposition might not be so
hot if the statistical result is a collision with an airliner every
four years. * We need to get into the ten million to one zone or
better and that is probably what widespread use of transponder will
accomplish. * Thank you for helping me make my point.

Ya but the number of gliders regularly sharing airspace with airliners
and business jets is probably more like 1000. or less. maybe way
less. I do my best to keep a look out as the other guy but there are
times in airplanes and gliders where i realize i am too much heads
down. it happens to all of us, no one is without blame. electronics
can help, or be more of a heads down distraction. I do have a garmin
transponder in the garage to get installed in the Cherokee. I need to
get that done. it's going to be a power hog but it was cheap. I don't
have an extra $2500 laying around for the latest gizmo.

On Jul 23, 11:15*am, Steve Koerner wrote:
If that gun has 1,000,000 chambers but only one bullet, you spin it for
randomness, and you pull the trigger once an hour while in flight,

OK, Jim. *I don't know where you got your numbers but lets run them
out...

Roughly, there is perhaps 5000 glider pilots in the US doing say 50
hours per year. * So your million to one proposition might not be so
hot if the statistical result is a collision with an airliner every
four years. * We need to get into the ten million to one zone or
better and that is probably what widespread use of transponder will
accomplish. * Thank you for helping me make my point.

Maybe statement like "playing Russian roulette" help remind pilot's of
the dangers of flying gliders without transponders in areas of high
density airline/fast-jet and other traffic. And most sensible folks
can understand while a very serious issue (especially if it involves
the lives of an airliner full of passengers) that the statement is
hyperbole.

Taking the Reno area alone we've had one mid-air collision with a fast
jet in the last several years, and at least one close indent with an
airliner and likely some other situations where things got close than
they should have. So any guesses what the currently demonstrated
number of mid-air collisions or close call are per glider-op or hour
of flying in that area is? What is know is that installing
transponders in gliders for compatibility with TCAS that effectively
almost all these airliners and fast jets are equipped would be a
significant safety net to help avoid the scary scenario of such a mid-
air collision.

And while on this, I prefer Cindy Brickner's "playing volleyball on
the freeway" as alternate description to "playing Russian roulette" to
describe gliders flying in high traffic density areas like in the
Carson Valley area around Reno. That amusing on face value description
at least emphasizes doing a fun activity in a risky place. Neither
description quite captures the risks to those passengers in the
airliners.

Darryl