FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

BTW John, I appreciate your question. I feel many have misperceptions about FAI and its integration. Some have spun negative image and scare tactics to keep FAI out of the US.
Sean Franke (HA)

On Sunday, December 9, 2012 2:58:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sunday, December 9, 2012 11:29:22 AM UTC-8, John Carlyle wrote:

I had a look at the SSA Contest results, and I can't tell if mixed rules (US and FAI) were tried at the super regional held in Moriarty last year. If (1) the Club Class FAI petition succeeds, and (2) the contest organizer changes his mind, then Mifflin might be the first mixed rule Nationals contest.

I may have missed it, but I don't believe anyone has asked the pilots flying Sports Class at Mifflin in May 2013 how they'd feel about flying under US rules while another Class at the same contest was flying under FAI rules.

Speaking for myself, I'm not eager to be in such an experiment. In my view there are chances for things to go wrong, and I'd prefer that mixed rules flying be tried somewhere else, without me participating.

-John



I'm curious John, what conflicts do you see with Sports Class? The same start and finish can be used. The difference is a narrower handicap range, only AT and AAT and scoring formula. How does that effect a US rules based Sports Class?

Sean Franke (HA)

On Sunday, December 9, 2012 3:23:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
BTW John, I appreciate your question. I feel many have misperceptions about FAI and its integration. Some have spun negative image and scare tactics to keep FAI out of the US.

Sean Franke (HA)


Sean,

What concerns me the most are reports that FAI rules result in gaggle flying. For the relatively new to competition pilots that Sports Class attracts, I can think of a few ways that gaggle flying could cause real problems at the start, during the task, and at the finish.

At the start Sports Class could be milling around near the top of the cylinder close to the course line when suddenly a large group of gliders (the entire Club Class) could zoom by just under Vne. You'd definitely need different start areas with different first course lines.

During the task Sports Class gliders could be caught by a large part of the Club Class in a thermal. This wouldn't be the comparatively tame pre-start large gaggle thermal experience, but a large number of experienced contest pilots with their game face on, flying aggressively to get and keep any possible advantage, in the company of relatively new to competition pilots.

At the finish a Sports Class glider pilot could find himself making an approach along with most of the Club Class. Mifflin can handle 6 simultaneous approaches, but more than that could get real exciting (dangerous).

I'm sure that you, or someone else experienced with both US and FAI rules, could think of other potential problems with flying mixed rules (and probably you/they could think of possible ways to minimize these problems, too. But I'm afraid that until mixed rules are actually tried during a contest we won't understand all of the areas where things could go wrong. And I'd rather not be at that particular contest...

-John

U.S. rules in Moriarty last year. We chose the handicaps allowed for Club and Modern classes through a waiver.

Being able to operate with waivers when holding Club/Modern Contests, has been easy, allowing for a lot of flexibility.

Thanks to everyone involved at the SSA, and a some very dedicated volunteers, we have had two successful Club/Modern Super Regionals, with very good participation. In each class the pilots who flew the best were at the top.

Mike

On Sunday, December 9, 2012 12:29:22 PM UTC-7, John Carlyle wrote:
I had a look at the SSA Contest results, and I can't tell if mixed rules (US and FAI) were tried at the super regional held in Moriarty last year. If (1) the Club Class FAI petition succeeds, and (2) the contest organizer changes his mind, then Mifflin might be the first mixed rule Nationals contest.



I may have missed it, but I don't believe anyone has asked the pilots flying Sports Class at Mifflin in May 2013 how they'd feel about flying under US rules while another Class at the same contest was flying under FAI rules..



Speaking for myself, I'm not eager to be in such an experiment. In my view there are chances for things to go wrong, and I'd prefer that mixed rules flying be tried somewhere else, without me participating.



-John

On Sunday, December 9, 2012 1:22:39 PM UTC-8, John Carlyle wrote:
On Sunday, December 9, 2012 2:58:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:

On Sunday, December 9, 2012 11:29:22 AM UTC-8, John Carlyle wrote:



I had a look at the SSA Contest results, and I can't tell if mixed rules (US and FAI) were tried at the super regional held in Moriarty last year. If (1) the Club Class FAI petition succeeds, and (2) the contest organizer changes his mind, then Mifflin might be the first mixed rule Nationals contest.



I may have missed it, but I don't believe anyone has asked the pilots flying Sports Class at Mifflin in May 2013 how they'd feel about flying under US rules while another Class at the same contest was flying under FAI rules.



Speaking for myself, I'm not eager to be in such an experiment. In my view there are chances for things to go wrong, and I'd prefer that mixed rules flying be tried somewhere else, without me participating.



-John







I'm curious John, what conflicts do you see with Sports Class? The same start and finish can be used. The difference is a narrower handicap range, only AT and AAT and scoring formula. How does that effect a US rules based Sports Class?



Sean Franke (HA)



On Sunday, December 9, 2012 3:23:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:

BTW John, I appreciate your question. I feel many have misperceptions about FAI and its integration. Some have spun negative image and scare tactics to keep FAI out of the US.



Sean Franke (HA)





Sean,



What concerns me the most are reports that FAI rules result in gaggle flying. For the relatively new to competition pilots that Sports Class attracts, I can think of a few ways that gaggle flying could cause real problems at the start, during the task, and at the finish.



At the start Sports Class could be milling around near the top of the cylinder close to the course line when suddenly a large group of gliders (the entire Club Class) could zoom by just under Vne. You'd definitely need different start areas with different first course lines.



During the task Sports Class gliders could be caught by a large part of the Club Class in a thermal. This wouldn't be the comparatively tame pre-start large gaggle thermal experience, but a large number of experienced contest pilots with their game face on, flying aggressively to get and keep any possible advantage, in the company of relatively new to competition pilots.



At the finish a Sports Class glider pilot could find himself making an approach along with most of the Club Class. Mifflin can handle 6 simultaneous approaches, but more than that could get real exciting (dangerous).



I'm sure that you, or someone else experienced with both US and FAI rules, could think of other potential problems with flying mixed rules (and probably you/they could think of possible ways to minimize these problems, too. But I'm afraid that until mixed rules are actually tried during a contest we won't understand all of the areas where things could go wrong. And I'd rather not be at that particular contest...



-John

John, gaggle flying happens mostly in AT and weak days. With the RC proposal AT will happen next year with both lower and higher handicap range gliders flying US Rules in Mifflin. So in that respect you can expect more gaggle flying next year with current RC proposal.

An FAI rules based class in Mifflin will have no increased gaggling than what is currently proposed. No matter which rules are applied gaggle flying before the start is unavoidable. I have flow FAI and US Rule based contests. My biggest gaggle flying experience by far was under US Rules. BTW, I have flown four FAI contests and never seen anyone make a red line start.

It's a common US perception that FAI contest = extreme gaggle, unsafe and aggressive flying. This myth is perpetuated by those trying to keep simpler, common sense FAI Rules out of the US.

We are trying to accomplish three goals with FAI rules:
1. Narrow handicap range
2. AT and AAT only
3. IGC scoring

All are 100% compatible in Mifflin.

Sean Franke (HA)

44 Signatures.

At pace to be near 60 by New Years.

By February 23rd, who knows...

On Sunday, December 9, 2012 6:35:28 PM UTC-5, wrote:
John, gaggle flying happens mostly in AT and weak days. With the RC proposal AT will happen next year with both lower and higher handicap range gliders flying US Rules in Mifflin. So in that respect you can expect more gaggle flying next year with current RC proposal.

An FAI rules based class in Mifflin will have no increased gaggling than what is currently proposed. No matter which rules are applied gaggle flying before the start is unavoidable. I have flow FAI and US Rule based contests. My biggest gaggle flying experience by far was under US Rules. BTW, I have flown four FAI contests and never seen anyone make a red line start..

It's a common US perception that FAI contest = extreme gaggle, unsafe and aggressive flying. This myth is perpetuated by those trying to keep simpler, common sense FAI Rules out of the US.

We are trying to accomplish three goals with FAI rules:
1. Narrow handicap range
2. AT and AAT only
3. IGC scoring

All are 100% compatible in Mifflin.

Sean Franke (HA)

Sean,

I don’t doubt your description, but I think your experience at the Worlds was atypical. All accounts I’ve read about flying in the Worlds have mentioned the huge on-course gaggles. Also, one of the RC members believes that the large on-course gaggle strategy is a direct result of the FAI rules themselves.

I’ve flown at Mifflin in a variety of weather conditions, and the largest on-course gaggle I’ve been in was 5 gliders. I flew at another contest site where every day I’d be in on-course gaggles of 20+ gliders. I didn’t enjoy it, and although I can deal with it if required, I’m not anxious to fly in another contest where such large on-course gaggles might be likely.

If your petition to the SSA succeeds, please make sure to ask those pilots flying in traditional Sports Class at Mifflin 2013 if they want to fly in the first mixed rule competition.

-John

On Monday, December 10, 2012 12:57:54 PM UTC-8, John Carlyle wrote:
On Sunday, December 9, 2012 6:35:28 PM UTC-5, wrote:

John, gaggle flying happens mostly in AT and weak days. With the RC proposal AT will happen next year with both lower and higher handicap range gliders flying US Rules in Mifflin. So in that respect you can expect more gaggle flying next year with current RC proposal.



An FAI rules based class in Mifflin will have no increased gaggling than what is currently proposed. No matter which rules are applied gaggle flying before the start is unavoidable. I have flow FAI and US Rule based contests. My biggest gaggle flying experience by far was under US Rules. BTW, I have flown four FAI contests and never seen anyone make a red line start.

On Monday, December 10, 2012 5:20:31 PM UTC-5, wrote:
The RC current proposal for Mifflin 2013 includes AT which is known to increase gaggles. If they succeed should Mifflin pilots be asked if they want to fly in the first AT two handicap division Sports Class Nationals?

Sean Franke (HA)

Hank Nixon already gave a "heads up" on this possibility on Nov 7 in this forum. Knowing Hank, I expect that if the CC is approved by the SSA BOD, he'll be making even more announcements. So you don't have to worry about it, Sean.

-John

On Tuesday, December 11, 2012 8:28:21 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Monday, December 10, 2012 3:05:17 PM UTC-8, John Carlyle wrote:

On Monday, December 10, 2012 5:20:31 PM UTC-5, wrote:



The RC current proposal for Mifflin 2013 includes AT which is known to increase gaggles. If they succeed should Mifflin pilots be asked if they want to fly in the first AT two handicap division Sports Class Nationals?







Sean Franke (HA)







Hank Nixon already gave a "heads up" on this possibility on Nov 7 in this forum. Knowing Hank, I expect that if the CC is approved by the SSA BOD, he'll be making even more announcements. So you don't have to worry about it, Sean.







-John



John, it's good to hear concerns and suggestions. Based on what I hear from you and others, the Sports Class should remain intact without rule changes. If AT is introduced so will gaggles. There are some like you who don't care to fly in a class with gaggles.



Evan stated some advantages and merits of MAT such as less work and more BBQ's. If the Sports Class added AT there would be fewer MAT's.



Guy posted "The trick is to preserve the spirit and the simplicity of the FAI rules, but at the same time make them a bit more palatable to US pilots."



What makes sense to preserve Sports Class as an all inclusive handicap class under current US rules. In ADDITION ADD US Club Class at the same venue under FAI rules. This way no one goes home and 99% are happy. Fly in the class you prefer. Club Class can, if necessary, have a separate start area and be tasked differently than Sports Class reducing glider traffic. Those who don't care for MAT (I'm one)aren't forced to fly it. Also, those who want something different that US rules have a place to fly. The US Club Class should preserve FAI spirit but make compatible with US pilots. Variations might include handicap acceptance and unit format.



Sean Franke (HA)

Using the entry lists/gliders from recent Sports Nats as a baseline, this proposal doesn't work. Surely that's obvious.

T8

On Wednesday, December 12, 2012 5:40:04 AM UTC-8, Evan Ludeman wrote:
On Tuesday, December 11, 2012 8:28:21 PM UTC-5, wrote:

On Monday, December 10, 2012 3:05:17 PM UTC-8, John Carlyle wrote:



On Monday, December 10, 2012 5:20:31 PM UTC-5, wrote:







The RC current proposal for Mifflin 2013 includes AT which is known to increase gaggles. If they succeed should Mifflin pilots be asked if they want to fly in the first AT two handicap division Sports Class Nationals?















Sean Franke (HA)















Hank Nixon already gave a "heads up" on this possibility on Nov 7 in this forum. Knowing Hank, I expect that if the CC is approved by the SSA BOD, he'll be making even more announcements. So you don't have to worry about it, Sean.















-John







John, it's good to hear concerns and suggestions. Based on what I hear from you and others, the Sports Class should remain intact without rule changes. If AT is introduced so will gaggles. There are some like you who don't care to fly in a class with gaggles.







Evan stated some advantages and merits of MAT such as less work and more BBQ's. If the Sports Class added AT there would be fewer MAT's.







Guy posted "The trick is to preserve the spirit and the simplicity of the FAI rules, but at the same time make them a bit more palatable to US pilots."







What makes sense to preserve Sports Class as an all inclusive handicap class under current US rules. In ADDITION ADD US Club Class at the same venue under FAI rules. This way no one goes home and 99% are happy. Fly in the class you prefer. Club Class can, if necessary, have a separate start area and be tasked differently than Sports Class reducing glider traffic. Those who don't care for MAT (I'm one)aren't forced to fly it. Also, those who want something different that US rules have a place to fly. The US Club Class should preserve FAI spirit but make compatible with US pilots. Variations might include handicap acceptance and unit format.







Sean Franke (HA)



Using the entry lists/gliders from recent Sports Nats as a baseline, this proposal doesn't work. Surely that's obvious.



T8

Sorry, it's not obvious. Please explain.

Sean Franke (HA)