Where is the LX S80?

On Thursday, 23 October 2014 21:11:44 UTC+3, wrote:
Thank you.
In my next life I will try to be a physicist.
I am greatly attracted to the technology in the Butterfly Vario but in asking many people about their experiences, customer service and support is lacking. I am tired of paying full price to be a beta tester and then get abandoned.

I'm only interested in LX Nav's current state of variometer technology. As a general remark, modern consumer is beta tester in every product that contains software. Sadly.

On Thursday, October 23, 2014 11:11:44 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Thank you.
In my next life I will try to be a physicist.
I am greatly attracted to the technology in the Butterfly Vario but in asking many people about their experiences, customer service and support is lacking. I am tired of paying full price to be a beta tester and then get abandoned.

And who would these many people be? I have not had that experience.

Richard

On Thursday, October 23, 2014 11:11:44 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Thank you.
In my next life I will try to be a physicist.
I am greatly attracted to the technology in the Butterfly Vario but in asking many people about their experiences, customer service and support is lacking. I am tired of paying full price to be a beta tester and then get abandoned.

What you call "beta testers" is better described as "early adopters". I am sure Butterfly has a small subset of users that they actually enlist as beta testers.

We are lucky to have people that start companies like that which have the vision and are willing to take a inordinate risk by developing such advanced products - especially for such a small market - in the hope of establishing a sustainable business. They count on the availability of early adopters, without which their venture would most likely not be viable. On the other hand, the early adopters seek to get their hands on the latest technology as soon as possible. It is a symbiotic relationship.

It just happens that some people are just not willing or suitable early adopters. That's fine. Just wait until the product matures then consider it again. If you are expecting a completely finished product from the very first version, it is not going to happen.

Not in every case you pay full price as an early adopter. Many received a very nice discount on a Powerflarm for being one.

David

On Thursday, October 23, 2014 6:24:29 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, October 23, 2014 11:11:44 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Thank you.
In my next life I will try to be a physicist.
I am greatly attracted to the technology in the Butterfly Vario but in asking many people about their experiences, customer service and support is lacking. I am tired of paying full price to be a beta tester and then get abandoned.

What you call "beta testers" is better described as "early adopters". I am sure Butterfly has a small subset of users that they actually enlist as beta testers.

We are lucky to have people that start companies like that which have the vision and are willing to take a inordinate risk by developing such advanced products - especially for such a small market - in the hope of establishing a sustainable business. They count on the availability of early adopters, without which their venture would most likely not be viable. On the other hand, the early adopters seek to get their hands on the latest technology as soon as possible. It is a symbiotic relationship.

It just happens that some people are just not willing or suitable early adopters. That's fine. Just wait until the product matures then consider it again. If you are expecting a completely finished product from the very first version, it is not going to happen.

Not in every case you pay full price as an early adopter. Many received a very nice discount on a Powerflarm for being one.

David

I second what David said, and I also agree with Jon and Richard. I have a Butterfly Vario, and I love it. There are hiccups, sure, but I've got hiccups with my iPhone 6, too. Just like Apple has done, Butterfly has responded swiftly to fix them. Sounds to me like you're a perfectionist that wouldn't be satisfied with any piece of equipment, up to and including your glider.

-John, Q3

On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 2:03:48 AM UTC+11, jfitch wrote:
On Monday, October 20, 2014 4:24:46 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, October 10, 2014 3:50:54 AM UTC+11, wrote:

Excellent questions and observations.



I am focused on the S80 and Butterfly primarily because they have an artificial horizon but also would like a unit that can filter out horizontal gusts that cause me/us to think we have entered a strong thermal. It also would seem that the instantaneous wind readings would be very helpful when flying convergence lines.



You have a built in filter that can eliminate false readings due to gusts. It's called your backside. If you can't feel the acceleration, it's not there.

Acceleration due to a a vertical or horizontal gust are not discernible by the human backside. Both result in an increase in lift: the former due to an increase in the angle of attack and the latter due to an increase in air speed. Both can be used to gain energy, but you will find circling in the latter a pointless exercise. Which is why every variometer manufacturer is trying to differentiate them.

A horizontal gust does NOT produce acceleration. That's why you can't feel it. If you cannot sense vertical acceleration it's not there, despite what your instruments are telling you.
To put it another way: if your vario is telling you that you are accelerating upwards at 5 knots (500 fpm or over 8 feet per second) and you cannot feel it, then you can ignore it as a gust. Why look for a complex technological solution to something so simple?
A vertical gust is a different matter. I presume by vertical gust you are referring to a vertical movement of air. What distinguishes a vertical gust from lift?

The issue with horizontal gusts is that if you fly into a thermal outflow (quite common where they are strong and dry), it temporarily increases your airspeed. The TE probe outputs a signal that interprets this increase in aircraft energy as lift. There is no acceleration, just an increase in energy. The seat of your pants may well be able to sense the lack of acceleration in this circumstance, but sensitive accelerometers will be even better.

Mike

On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 4:39:56 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 2:03:48 AM UTC+11, jfitch wrote:
On Monday, October 20, 2014 4:24:46 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, October 10, 2014 3:50:54 AM UTC+11, wrote:

Excellent questions and observations.



I am focused on the S80 and Butterfly primarily because they have an artificial horizon but also would like a unit that can filter out horizontal gusts that cause me/us to think we have entered a strong thermal. It also would seem that the instantaneous wind readings would be very helpful when flying convergence lines.



You have a built in filter that can eliminate false readings due to gusts. It's called your backside. If you can't feel the acceleration, it's not there.

Acceleration due to a a vertical or horizontal gust are not discernible by the human backside. Both result in an increase in lift: the former due to an increase in the angle of attack and the latter due to an increase in air speed. Both can be used to gain energy, but you will find circling in the latter a pointless exercise. Which is why every variometer manufacturer is trying to differentiate them.

A horizontal gust does NOT produce acceleration. That's why you can't feel it. If you cannot sense vertical acceleration it's not there, despite what your instruments are telling you.
To put it another way: if your vario is telling you that you are accelerating upwards at 5 knots (500 fpm or over 8 feet per second) and you cannot feel it, then you can ignore it as a gust. Why look for a complex technological solution to something so simple?
A vertical gust is a different matter. I presume by vertical gust you are referring to a vertical movement of air. What distinguishes a vertical gust from lift?

A horizontal gust most certainly does produce acceleration, at least on this planet. It will cause a horizontal acceleration due to direct drag on the airframe, and a vertical acceleration due to an increase in lift. To refresh your memory, lift = dynamic press x coefficient of lift x wing area. The instantaneous coefficient of lift does not change at a horizontal gust (nor obviously does wing area) but dynamic pressure increases as the square of the velocity. If the gust is from ahead and say 10 knots flying at 50, you have a sudden increase in lift of 44%, therefore you will feel 1.44 Gs upward acceleration momentarily.

A vertical gust is what we call lift, though it can be quite transient, then we call it turbulence. A vertical gust increases airspeed slightly, but increases angle of attack and therefore coefficient of lift markedly. That causes vertical acceleration due to increased lift, and horizontal acceleration due to an increase in induced drag. A 10 knot vertical gust encountered at 50 knots will only give you about 1.2 Gs though, since lift/angle of attack is approximately linear.

Your variometer might also be confused in various ways (lag, TE comp, acceleration effects) but the accelerations described above are very real. In gusty conditions (or better still a high wind shear gradient) it is possible to extract energy from horizontal gusts, sufficient to soar. It has been done in full size sailplanes and is routinely done in RC gliders.

On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 11:07:05 AM UTC+11, Mike the Strike wrote:
The issue with horizontal gusts is that if you fly into a thermal outflow (quite common where they are strong and dry), it temporarily increases your airspeed. The TE probe outputs a signal that interprets this increase in aircraft energy as lift. There is no acceleration, just an increase in energy. The seat of your pants may well be able to sense the lack of acceleration in this circumstance, but sensitive accelerometers will be even better.

On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 5:07:05 PM UTC-7, Mike the Strike wrote:
The issue with horizontal gusts is that if you fly into a thermal outflow (quite common where they are strong and dry), it temporarily increases your airspeed. The TE probe outputs a signal that interprets this increase in aircraft energy as lift. There is no acceleration, just an increase in energy. The seat of your pants may well be able to sense the lack of acceleration in this circumstance, but sensitive accelerometers will be even better.

On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 5:22:42 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 11:07:05 AM UTC+11, Mike the Strike wrote:
The issue with horizontal gusts is that if you fly into a thermal outflow (quite common where they are strong and dry), it temporarily increases your airspeed. The TE probe outputs a signal that interprets this increase in aircraft energy as lift. There is no acceleration, just an increase in energy. The seat of your pants may well be able to sense the lack of acceleration in this circumstance, but sensitive accelerometers will be even better.

Mike

I know what a horizontal gust is, and what causes it,and I am aware that it results in a false reading of lift on the vario.
You are missing my point entirely. Despite what the vario is indicating, if you cannot feel a vertical acceleration, then it is simply not there, and you can ignore the vario. No need for a complex algoriths or hardware. You already have a sensitive accelerometer refined over millions of years: use it.

You are missing my point entirely. A horizontal gust causes actual, real, measurable, and "feelable" vertical acceleration. Ignoring the vario entirely, how can you differentiate it from that acceleration caused by a vertical gust? You cannot without additional information - vertical acceleration is vertical acceleration.