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[USA] What do you think of the 20 Meter 2 Seat Class?



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 27th 10, 04:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
GK[_2_]
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Posts: 25
Default What do you think of the 20 Meter 2 Seat Class?

On Jan 26, 8:19*pm, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 05:41:25 -0800 (PST), lrbj

wrote:
From the document:
"... the IGC is asked to consider the option of replacing the World
Class or the future 13,5 m class with the 20 m two seater class,
provided a suitable solution for the WC/13,5 m class can be found.


Comparing the number of Duo Discus and DG-1000s to the number of
PW-5s, there can only be one solution... get rid of the World class.
The sooner, the better.


Doing the math for you via the FAA database:

Number of registered Pw-5s - 71
Combined number of DuoD and DGs1000 - 47

Not to mention that most Duo and DGs in US are used by money hungry
FBOs and are in-accessible for club folks.

Maybe you should leave at least ONE class that doesn't require
spending 150K with Herr F. or Herr X., or don't cry later about
spending 250 Euro per year to have your bird airworthy...
  #12  
Old January 27th 10, 05:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
T8
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Posts: 429
Default What do you think of the 20 Meter 2 Seat Class?

On Jan 27, 9:29*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
*The US representative to
the Club class will have never finished higher than 7th in a US
Nationals and that was six years ago. *Are we really sending our best
pilots or should we be investing in improving or pilots to be able to
do better internationally?


I agree we need fewer classes. However, the above is due to the US
curiously shoot-self-in-foot pilot selection policy, not due to the
IGC creating too many classes. US club pilots may not have
participated in an FAI worlds, and must qualify in a "club" glider,
ruling out over 1/2 of the sports class entrants. The UK will send to
the club worlds....Andy Davis and G Dale. (The equivalent in the US
of, say, Karl Striedieck and Gary Ittner.) Good luck US, we're going
to need it!

John Cochrane


Handicapped comps in old gliders -- however much fun at the local
level -- have never made any sense to me at the World's. We know
handicaps are imperfect. We know the imperfections become more
significant as the pilots get better. I've seen with my own eyes how
the competition that's fun for tyros turns into a blowout when a good
pilot turns up with a ringer. Club class has fewer embedded problems
here than the US Sports class, largely due to accepting a narrower
performance range of gliders... but the motivations for Club or Sports
that are so compelling at the regional level simply aren't relevant at
a World comp.

Take Andy, G, Karl and Gary for instance. Does putting Andy in an
LS-1, G in a 20, Karl in an ASW-15 and Gary in a Mosquito really add
anything over watching them slug it out in modern 15m (or 18m, or
standard) class ships? It's quaint and amusing sure, but if you're
asking for my donation to support the team, I'd much rather see them
in a non-handicapped class.

The selection process we use for the US Club class team is a separate
issue and makes one wonder what's in our water supply.

-Evan Ludeman / T8
  #13  
Old January 27th 10, 05:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andreas Maurer
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Posts: 345
Default What do you think of the 20 Meter 2 Seat Class?

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 07:56:51 -0800 (PST), GK wrote:



Number of registered Pw-5s - 71
Combined number of DuoD and DGs1000 - 47

Not to mention that most Duo and DGs in US are used by money hungry
FBOs and are in-accessible for club folks.

Maybe you should leave at least ONE class that doesn't require
spending 150K with Herr F. or Herr X., or don't cry later about
spending 250 Euro per year to have your bird airworthy...



Well..., there are virtually no PW-5s in the countries where gliding
is (still) popular, e.g. Germany, France, Austria, Switzerland,
Netherlands, Great Britain et cetera.

But there are very, very few clubs which don't own a high-performance
double seater like Janus, Duo, DG-505 or DG-1000.

Let's face it: World class is virtually non-existent (and the PW-5 is
out of production, isn't it?). Noone ever wanted it.
Instead people did what everyone had predicted: They bought used
gliders with far superior performance for a lot less money than a PW-5
would have cost.

Have any World class competition you like on your side of the big
pond... but stop calling it "World" class, please.






Bye
Andreas
  #14  
Old January 27th 10, 09:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
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Posts: 1,224
Default What do you think of the 20 Meter 2 Seat Class?

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:53:59 +0100, Andreas Maurer wrote:

Let's face it: World class is virtually non-existent (and the PW-5 is
out of production, isn't it?). Noone ever wanted it. Instead people did
what everyone had predicted: They bought used gliders with far superior
performance for a lot less money than a PW-5 would have cost.

Simple solution so its owners don't feel left out: have the IGC assign it
a handicap and let it fly in Club Class.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
  #15  
Old January 27th 10, 10:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Gliderphud
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Default What do you think of the 20 Meter 2 Seat Class?

On Jan 27, 8:47*am, Tim wrote:
On Jan 27, 8:29*am, John Cochrane
wrote:





*The US representative to
the Club class will have never finished higher than 7th in a US
Nationals and that was six years ago. *Are we really sending our best
pilots or should we be investing in improving or pilots to be able to
do better internationally?


I agree we need fewer classes. However, the above is due to the US
curiously shoot-self-in-foot pilot selection policy, not due to the
IGC creating too many classes. US club pilots may not have
participated in an FAI worlds, and must qualify in a "club" glider,
ruling out over 1/2 of the sports class entrants. The UK will send to
the club worlds....Andy Davis and G Dale. (The equivalent in the US
of, say, Karl Striedieck and Gary Ittner.) Good luck US, we're going
to need it!


John Cochrane


Really... Pilot Selection Policy is the problem? ... Really!

There have been a great number of U.S. "Big Names" finishing much
lower than than 7th in the "real" FAI Classes at Worlds over the past
MANY, MANY WGC's. Has the current Pilot Selection Policy been the
problem there??? And they have had the benefit of racing here at home
under the same classes and in the same ships they will at worlds. So
what is their excuse? Maybe because it is tough AND we persist with
tasking strategies and scoring formulas that are tailored for the
US,and the US alone.

The real problem is that U.S. Club Class Pilots do not race their
peers who specialize in club class, ever, until getting to Europe.
Give me a Club Class here like the Europeans have - Exactly like they
have, and I and others will concentrate on it, *and when the people
who can afford own the newest ships "slum" to our affordability level
in apickup "old glider, will kick a great many "Big Name"/FAI Class
Pilot *tail-ends.... Go Get'em Sean and Ryszard - real club class
pilots in real club class ships here in the USA..

I wish you the very best at worlds this summer BB - the US needs
someone, anyone, to win since its been a very long time indeed and we
need the boost. But until you actually go over to Europe, race under
their conditions and stipulations, in the pressure cooker of worlds,
and place higher than 7th; I will hold off crowning you "better" than
anyone we've sent to club class under the current selection policies.

If anyone can't tell, this constant denigration of the club class
concept and by association my skills, AND the skills of the other
pilots we have sent to Club Class WGC's, really ... ANGERS ME!

Thanks to the growing Club Class movement in the U.S., especially
those in Region 5. I only wish I could get to that regional to fly
club class here in the USA - unfortunately I will be going for another
national title with my girls rowing team at that time of year. Change
the dates or get some more club class waivers going and I'm there!

Respectfully if not angrily ,
Tim McAllister EY

If anyone wants to talk Club Class in Little Rock, look for the
bearded guy with steam coming out of his ears and maybe a Club Class
WGC US Team or event shirt on...


Tim,

I don't think anyone is against the Club class, only the pathetic team
selection process in the USA for all classes. Right now being willing
to travel thousands of miles has nearly the same weight as being a
good pilot.

Lets take a back of envelope approach to the current US system.

Pilot A flies an ASG-29; in year one he wins the 15M contest, in year
two he wins the 18M contest and in year three he wins the Sports class
contest. He has decided that he doesn't like to travel thousands of
miles so flies only in his part of the country.

Pilot B flies an ASW-27 and competes in the 15M contest all three
years placing 5th each year.

Which one is the better pilot and should represent the USA in the
international contests?

Pilot A has no chance because the current system only calculates
points from one class with no cross class points.

Pilot B could likely end up on the US team because very few pilots are
willing to cross the country each year to compete in one class. I
feel sorry for any East coast Open class pilots. There have been no
contests in the east in the last 5 contest seasons.

We make it even worse with the Club class selection rules that say you
can not have competed at the Worlds before and must fly a Club class
glider at the Sports class nationals to qualify. If you specialize in
Club class you only can go to the worlds once and can't be on the team
again.

I hope the US team and contest committee will really look at the rules
in the future and listen to the feedback they got this year about the
time and driving issues for contests. The only way change will be
made is to present a fully written proposal because they don't have
time at the meeting to really discuss the issues.

  #16  
Old January 27th 10, 10:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tony[_5_]
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Posts: 1,965
Default What do you think of the 20 Meter 2 Seat Class?

On Jan 27, 2:30*pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:53:59 +0100, Andreas Maurer wrote:
Let's face it: World class is virtually non-existent (and the PW-5 is
out of production, isn't it?). Noone ever wanted it. Instead people did
what everyone had predicted: They bought used gliders with far superior
performance for a lot less money than a PW-5 would have cost.


Simple solution so its owners don't feel left out: have the IGC assign it
a handicap and let it fly in Club Class.

--
martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org * * * |


or the future 13.5m class
  #17  
Old January 27th 10, 11:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Posts: 961
Default What do you think of the 20 Meter 2 Seat Class?

On Jan 28, 4:56*am, GK wrote:
Doing the math for you via the FAA database:

Number of registered Pw-5s - 71
Combined number of DuoD and DGs1000 - 47


Similar ratio in New Zealand: 9 Duo Discus and 3 DG 1000 vs 17 PW5s.


Not to mention that most Duo and DGs in US are used by money hungry
FBOs and are in-accessible for club folks.


All the DG1000's in NZ are now in clubs (2 Wellington, 1 Fielding),
and I think 2 of the Duos.
  #18  
Old January 28th 10, 01:04 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andreas Maurer
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Posts: 345
Default What do you think of the 20 Meter 2 Seat Class?

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:30:48 +0000 (UTC), Martin Gregorie
wrote:


Simple solution so its owners don't feel left out: have the IGC assign it
a handicap and let it fly in Club Class.



At least in Germany this is already possible - the PW-5 has a handicap
factor of 86 (for comparison, a Ka-6e has 88, Std. Libelle 98, LS-4
106, ASH-25 124) .




  #19  
Old January 28th 10, 02:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane
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Posts: 90
Default What do you think of the 20 Meter 2 Seat Class?


At least in Germany this is already possible - the PW-5 has a handicap
factor of 86 (for comparison, a Ka-6e has 88, Std. Libelle 98, LS-4
106, ASH-25 124) .


In Germany, is the PW5 allowed to compete in club class?

In the US, we have a sports class, in which every glider can compete,
but the club class has been structured so that lower performance
gliders including PW5, silent, Ka6, Russia, Sparrowhawk, etc. are not
allowed to compete at all. One question before us is whether such
gliders should be allowed. After all, there is nothing in the rules
that says you can't bring a PW5 to a 15 meter contest if you want to,
it's rather curious you aren't even allowed to bring it to a club
contest.

John Cochrane
  #20  
Old January 28th 10, 04:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
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Posts: 1,224
Default What do you think of the 20 Meter 2 Seat Class?

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 01:04:19 +0100, Andreas Maurer wrote:

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:30:48 +0000 (UTC), Martin Gregorie
wrote:


Simple solution so its owners don't feel left out: have the IGC assign
it a handicap and let it fly in Club Class.



At least in Germany this is already possible - the PW-5 has a handicap
factor of 86 (for comparison, a Ka-6e has 88, Std. Libelle 98, LS-4 106,
ASH-25 124) .

Its the same in the UK (I think the numbers are the same too) but the
PW-5 is not in the 2006 IGC handicap list. That is the latest list I
could find on their web site. Have they omitted it in the interests of
keeping the performance range of Club Class gliders fairly small?


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
 




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