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[USA] What do you think of mandatory FLARM at Uvalde?



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 25th 11, 07:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 237
Default What do you think of mandatory FLARM at Uvalde?

On Jan 25, 12:31*pm, Andy wrote:
On Jan 25, 9:55*am, John Cochrane
wrote:

On Jan 24, 6:51*pm, R S wrote:


At the IGC meeting in March, we will decide whether to require FLARM
at World Gliding Championships. *


No brainer. Yes. But hardly necessary, as I think we've all got the
message now. The rest of the thread here should calm down


John,

What rule would you propose? *How will that rule take account of the
non zero probability that a FLARM will fail.

As you said the rule is hardly necessary since we all got the message.

Andy


A world contest can say "you have to have a flarm" the same way they
can say "you have to have a parachute" and "you can't have a turn and
bank." It's part of the scrutineering. I don't think there will be a
huge problem of people getting a flarm or parachute to show organizers
and then deliberately removing them for flight. There is the minor
issue of people turning flarm off if they think someone might follow
them, but that's a separate issue.

I do not favor mandatory flarm for US contests BTW. But it makes much
more sense for world events. People are putting a lot (a LOT) of money
already into world competition, so extra cost is really not an issue;
they have 150 gliders not the 20 that fill a typical US contest, and
they have tasks and rules that encourage mass gaggling. 95% already
have flarm.

John Cochrane
  #12  
Old January 25th 11, 08:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
lanebush
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 113
Default What do you think of mandatory FLARM at Uvalde?

On Jan 25, 1:50*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
On Jan 25, 12:31*pm, Andy wrote:









On Jan 25, 9:55*am, John Cochrane
wrote:


On Jan 24, 6:51*pm, R S wrote:


At the IGC meeting in March, we will decide whether to require FLARM
at World Gliding Championships. *


No brainer. Yes. But hardly necessary, as I think we've all got the
message now. The rest of the thread here should calm down


John,


What rule would you propose? *How will that rule take account of the
non zero probability that a FLARM will fail.


As you said the rule is hardly necessary since we all got the message.


Andy


A world contest can say "you have to have a flarm" the same way they
can say "you have to have a parachute" and "you can't have a turn and
bank." *It's part of the scrutineering. *I don't think there will be a
huge problem of people getting a flarm or parachute to show organizers
and then deliberately removing them for flight. There is the minor
issue of people turning flarm off if they think someone might follow
them, but that's a separate issue.

I do not favor mandatory flarm for US contests BTW. But it makes much
more sense for world events. People are putting a lot (a LOT) of money
already into world competition, so extra cost is really not an issue;
they have 150 gliders not the 20 that fill a typical US contest, and
they have tasks and rules that encourage mass gaggling. 95% already
have flarm.

John Cochrane


I can address the "does anyone bother with badges anymore?"

As one of the club CFIGs the badges are a motivator for our students /
members. I love the OLC and am a participant. However, the OLC is
not the same motivator as a badge and does not have the nostalgia or
duration of a badge. The badge program really seems to be getting
slammed by competition pilots and I just don't quite get it. Newly
certified pilots can ready the Silver requirements and it provides
real inspiration as does the ABC/Bronze program. There are plenty of
improvements that could be made to make the approval more user
friendly but as leaders in the cross country scene lets quit slamming
the badge program please.
  #13  
Old January 25th 11, 08:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tony[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,965
Default What do you think of mandatory FLARM at Uvalde?

On Jan 25, 1:01*pm, lanebush wrote:
On Jan 25, 1:50*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:



On Jan 25, 12:31*pm, Andy wrote:


On Jan 25, 9:55*am, John Cochrane
wrote:


On Jan 24, 6:51*pm, R S wrote:


At the IGC meeting in March, we will decide whether to require FLARM
at World Gliding Championships. *


No brainer. Yes. But hardly necessary, as I think we've all got the
message now. The rest of the thread here should calm down


John,


What rule would you propose? *How will that rule take account of the
non zero probability that a FLARM will fail.


As you said the rule is hardly necessary since we all got the message..


Andy


A world contest can say "you have to have a flarm" the same way they
can say "you have to have a parachute" and "you can't have a turn and
bank." *It's part of the scrutineering. *I don't think there will be a
huge problem of people getting a flarm or parachute to show organizers
and then deliberately removing them for flight. There is the minor
issue of people turning flarm off if they think someone might follow
them, but that's a separate issue.


I do not favor mandatory flarm for US contests BTW. But it makes much
more sense for world events. People are putting a lot (a LOT) of money
already into world competition, so extra cost is really not an issue;
they have 150 gliders not the 20 that fill a typical US contest, and
they have tasks and rules that encourage mass gaggling. 95% already
have flarm.


John Cochrane


I can address the "does anyone bother with badges anymore?"

As one of the club CFIGs the badges are a motivator for our students /
members. *I love the OLC and am a participant. *However, the OLC is
not the same motivator as a badge and does not have the nostalgia or
duration of a badge. *The badge program really seems to be getting
slammed by competition pilots and I just don't quite get it. *Newly
certified pilots can ready the Silver requirements and it provides
real inspiration as does the ABC/Bronze program. *There are plenty of
improvements that could be made to make the approval more user
friendly but as leaders in the cross country scene lets quit slamming
the badge program please.


Lane - +1! I love the badge program. Our pilots earned a lot of A,B,
and C badges at the club last year and hopefully we can do the same
next year. I also spent a fair amount of time working with our new XC
pilots and managed to get 100% first time approval on all of our badge
applications. We had a lot of fun!
  #14  
Old January 25th 11, 08:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 237
Default What do you think of mandatory FLARM at Uvalde?

On Jan 25, 1:01*pm, lanebush wrote:
On Jan 25, 1:50*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:



On Jan 25, 12:31*pm, Andy wrote:


On Jan 25, 9:55*am, John Cochrane
wrote:


On Jan 24, 6:51*pm, R S wrote:


At the IGC meeting in March, we will decide whether to require FLARM
at World Gliding Championships. *


No brainer. Yes. But hardly necessary, as I think we've all got the
message now. The rest of the thread here should calm down


John,


What rule would you propose? *How will that rule take account of the
non zero probability that a FLARM will fail.


As you said the rule is hardly necessary since we all got the message..


Andy


A world contest can say "you have to have a flarm" the same way they
can say "you have to have a parachute" and "you can't have a turn and
bank." *It's part of the scrutineering. *I don't think there will be a
huge problem of people getting a flarm or parachute to show organizers
and then deliberately removing them for flight. There is the minor
issue of people turning flarm off if they think someone might follow
them, but that's a separate issue.


I do not favor mandatory flarm for US contests BTW. But it makes much
more sense for world events. People are putting a lot (a LOT) of money
already into world competition, so extra cost is really not an issue;
they have 150 gliders not the 20 that fill a typical US contest, and
they have tasks and rules that encourage mass gaggling. 95% already
have flarm.


John Cochrane


I can address the "does anyone bother with badges anymore?"

As one of the club CFIGs the badges are a motivator for our students /
members. *I love the OLC and am a participant. *However, the OLC is
not the same motivator as a badge and does not have the nostalgia or
duration of a badge. *The badge program really seems to be getting
slammed by competition pilots and I just don't quite get it. *Newly
certified pilots can ready the Silver requirements and it provides
real inspiration as does the ABC/Bronze program. *There are plenty of
improvements that could be made to make the approval more user
friendly but as leaders in the cross country scene lets quit slamming
the badge program please.


I'm sorry if it came out wrong -- no "slam" intended at all. And the
whole badge idea is great -- a set of concrete goals to help pilots
cut the apron strings and go on to start flying cross country.

I just noticed that more pilots seem to be moving straight to OLC and
contests and not pursuing badges any more. Kudos to those who do.

John Cochrane
  #15  
Old January 25th 11, 09:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,124
Default What do you think of mandatory FLARM at Uvalde?

On Jan 25, 2:01*pm, lanebush wrote:
On Jan 25, 1:50*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:





On Jan 25, 12:31*pm, Andy wrote:


On Jan 25, 9:55*am, John Cochrane
wrote:


On Jan 24, 6:51*pm, R S wrote:


At the IGC meeting in March, we will decide whether to require FLARM
at World Gliding Championships. *


No brainer. Yes. But hardly necessary, as I think we've all got the
message now. The rest of the thread here should calm down


John,


What rule would you propose? *How will that rule take account of the
non zero probability that a FLARM will fail.


As you said the rule is hardly necessary since we all got the message..


Andy


A world contest can say "you have to have a flarm" the same way they
can say "you have to have a parachute" and "you can't have a turn and
bank." *It's part of the scrutineering. *I don't think there will be a
huge problem of people getting a flarm or parachute to show organizers
and then deliberately removing them for flight. There is the minor
issue of people turning flarm off if they think someone might follow
them, but that's a separate issue.


I do not favor mandatory flarm for US contests BTW. But it makes much
more sense for world events. People are putting a lot (a LOT) of money
already into world competition, so extra cost is really not an issue;
they have 150 gliders not the 20 that fill a typical US contest, and
they have tasks and rules that encourage mass gaggling. 95% already
have flarm.


John Cochrane


I can address the "does anyone bother with badges anymore?"

As one of the club CFIGs the badges are a motivator for our students /
members. *I love the OLC and am a participant. *However, the OLC is
not the same motivator as a badge and does not have the nostalgia or
duration of a badge. *The badge program really seems to be getting
slammed by competition pilots and I just don't quite get it. *Newly
certified pilots can ready the Silver requirements and it provides
real inspiration as does the ABC/Bronze program. *There are plenty of
improvements that could be made to make the approval more user
friendly but as leaders in the cross country scene lets quit slamming
the badge program please.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I violently agree!
The badge program sets a series of good objectives.
UH
  #16  
Old January 25th 11, 09:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,224
Default What do you think of mandatory FLARM at Uvalde?

On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 11:01:34 -0800, lanebush wrote:

I can address the "does anyone bother with badges anymore?"

As one of the club CFIGs the badges are a motivator for our students /
members. I love the OLC and am a participant. However, the OLC is not
the same motivator as a badge and does not have the nostalgia or
duration of a badge. The badge program really seems to be getting
slammed by competition pilots and I just don't quite get it. Newly
certified pilots can ready the Silver requirements and it provides real
inspiration as does the ABC/Bronze program. There are plenty of
improvements that could be made to make the approval more user friendly
but as leaders in the cross country scene lets quit slamming the badge
program please.

+1

In addition I'd like to point out that the badge system, at least as my
club uses it, is a direct stepping stone to competition flying. This is
because we start out by encouraging the use of predeclared tasks for all
XC flying:

- Silver distance: fly to a designated gliding club and land there

- 100 km diploma: this is a UK qualification that requires a
predeclared 100 km task to be scored. 1st leg involves simply flying
the task. 2nd leg involves flying the task and achieving a handicapped
65+ kph task speed.

- Gold distance: we usually fly that as a Diamond Goal flight and claiming
for both

- Diamond distance: again we pre-declare it.

Our prime reason for pre-declaring an xc flight and leaving a written
declaration at the launch point is safety: if the pilot doesn't return or
ring in after a land-out we have some idea of where to search. Secondly,
flying a predeclared task and making correct use of FAI or beer-can
turnpoints is good for honing and keeping navigation skills.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
  #17  
Old January 25th 11, 11:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Scott[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 256
Default What do you think of mandatory FLARM at Uvalde?

On 1-25-2011 12:51, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 17:35:36 -0800 (PST),
wrote:


If you mandate FLARM at Uvalde WGC what will you do about visiting
pilots that bring their own FLARM equipped gliders. With no FCC
certification they will not be legal for use in USA. IGC cannot, or
at least should not, mandate an illegal operation.


Then CANCEL the WGC at Uvalde.
Period.

If the organizers of a WGC forbid the use of THE major safety device,
they ought to be forbidden to hold ANY international contests.
Period.


Sorry if I sound angry - but I am.
Forbidding the use of FLARM at a WGC is about the dumbest thing that I
ever read on r.a.s.




Andreas


I have no idea what these devices even are (I'm a powered plane guy with
just some time in gliders). However, if I understand what you are
saying is these devices may not be "type accepted" by the FCC, in which
case they would be illegal in the USA. So, are you suggesting that laws
be broken just because they are perceived to be a safety device and to
just use them anyway? As a (licensed) user of FCC regulated airwaves in
my other hobby, I can not condone having illegal "transmitters" used
against present FCC regs. I ASSUME these things use transmitters or are
they strictly a receive only device?
  #18  
Old January 26th 11, 12:06 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andreas Maurer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 345
Default What do you think of mandatory FLARM at Uvalde?

On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 22:42:02 +0000, Scott
wrote:


So, are you suggesting that laws
be broken just because they are perceived to be a safety device and to
just use them anyway?


No.

To repeat myself:
What I'm suggesting is that an organizer who is prohibiting the use of
effective safety equipment should not be allowed to run any
competition, especially not the most prestigious one.

Cancel the WGC at Uvalde if there is no way to use FLARM legally.



Have you ever heard of a Nascar or Formula 1 race where the rules
*prohibited* drivers from wearing their safety belts?


Andreas

  #19  
Old January 26th 11, 12:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,565
Default What do you think of mandatory FLARM at Uvalde?

On Jan 25, 4:06*pm, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 22:42:02 +0000, Scott
wrote:

So, are you suggesting that laws
be broken just because they are perceived to be a safety device and to
just use them anyway? *


No.

To repeat myself:
What I'm suggesting is that an organizer who is prohibiting the use of
effective safety equipment should not be allowed to run any
competition, especially not the most prestigious one.

Cancel the WGC at Uvalde if there is no way to use FLARM legally.

Have you ever heard of a Nascar or Formula 1 race where the rules
*prohibited* drivers from wearing their safety belts?

Andreas


Where is exactly did you see anyone say that anything was being
prohibited by WGC organizers. Will you please quote what you think
was said. Otherwise please stop being so upset about an issue that
exists only in your imagination.

Andy
  #20  
Old January 26th 11, 01:21 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike the Strike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 952
Default What do you think of mandatory FLARM at Uvalde?

Let's look at this sensibly. The WGC is a year and a half away. In
the next few months, we expect to have FCC approval for a US Flarm.
Pre-orders are such that these will be widely in service later in the
year and pretty universal for contests by 2012. European Flarms may
or may not be FCC approved by then, but there will be rental US units
available to enable all gliders to be equipped.

Right now, no-one can mandate an approved Flarm unit in the USA
because there aren't any! That will likely change in the near future.

None of us are suggesting that encouraging the devices is bad, and
they are certainly not going to be banned, but it's just too early to
say how we will accomplish equipping the competing gliders.

Mike

 




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