Has there ever been an off-center gun?

R Haskin wrote:

"Juvat" wrote in message
...

F-15's gun is angled slightly above the waterline...for air-to-air,
making it unsuitable for strafe.

At least that's the answer I got at a PACAF conference when I asked
why they didn't have a 51-50 requirement to strafe.

Unsuitable is certainly not the word for it. The F-15E community has not
traditionally strafed on a regular basis because of the upcanted gun -- a
10-degree low angle strafe puts you pretty close to the dirt by the time you
cease fire.

Because of the "demand" for bullets in Allied Force, Enduring Freedom, and
Iraqi Freedom, strafe is back in the F-15E vernacular bigtime.

An acquaintance who flew A-7s and F-16s has said that the former's M61A1 was
aligned a couple of degrees below the waterline to improve its A/G usefulness,
while the Viper's is mounted slightly above to improve A/A ditto. I don't know
how the F-18 is set up. Marine pilots definitely did a lot of low-angle strafe
in DS.

Guy

Has there ever been an aircraft with a gun permanently aligned
off-center? I don't mean swivel mounted, but permanently fixed at a
point other than straight ahead.

Yes. The Japanese Army Air Force regularly mounted oblique cannon
(aimed upward and forward at perhaps a 30-degree angle) in their
interceptors in an attempt (not terribly successful) to shoot down the
B-29s which they couldn't otherwise reach.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

RobbelothE wrote:

Check out the Junkers-Larson ground attack prototype made for the
U.S. Army in the 1920s. It was basically an all-metal Junkers
monoplane transport with something like 30 .45 Calibre Thomson
Submachineguns firing at vatious angle through the bottom fuselage.
The idea was that it would fly along trench lines at low altitude,
saturating the trenches with bullets. (The opinions of the Gun
Plumber on board who'd have to change 30 75 round drum magazines after
each pass has not been recorded. Rest assured that it would have been
short, to teh point, disapproving, and contained a lock of words that
rhymed with "Duck".)

In the 1930s, the French built a large gunship with a downward firing
105mm Howitzer. From the 1960s on, the USAF, and several allied
nations, have flown various transports (C-47, C-119, C-130) with
arrays of guns pointing out of the side, aimed by maintaining a pylon
turn around the target. (Well, at first, at least) These guns have
range from 7.62mm machine guns to 105mm Howitzers, backed up by an
extensive sensor suite and ballistic computers. The side-firing bit
allows you to engange targets without flying over them, which is
generally considered a good thing.

--


Acutally, I believe the Germans were first. They developed a class of
Riesenflugzeug (Giant Aircraft) which began appearing in 1915. By 1916, LT
Ernst Neuber began working on his idea of mounting a 130mm cannon vertically in
the belly of an R-plane. Static tests began 25 May 1916 using a Gotha East
Experimental. On 6 October 1916 the gun was installed on the R-plane and the
gun was test fired several time in flight on 19 October. The Germans continued
testing and were working on a 105mm automatic cannon firing 20 rounds/minute
when the war ended. Neuber even patented his invention (#305,039).

There are reports of a side-firing .30 calibre machine gun being used on a DH-4
in 1927.

The French system of 1932 used the fameous French 75 mounted side-ways in the
Bordelaise A.B. 22 aircraft.

The USA tested the side-firing gunship concept duirng the summer of 1964 at
Eglin AFB using a C-131 transport and, IIRC, a single .7.62 mini-gun. The first
American gunship was the "FC-47" which carried 10 .30 cal side-firing machine
guns developed by Major Ronald W. Terry at Eglin AFB.

There was an installation in (I think) the Me-163 Komet which would
trigger an upward-firing weapon when the shadow of an Allied bomber
passed over it. AFAIK was used as well.

John

In article ,
"R Haskin" wrote:

"Juvat" wrote in message
...

F-15's gun is angled slightly above the waterline...for air-to-air,
making it unsuitable for strafe.

At least that's the answer I got at a PACAF conference when I asked
why they didn't have a 51-50 requirement to strafe.

Unsuitable is certainly not the word for it. The F-15E community has not
traditionally strafed on a regular basis because of the upcanted gun -- a
10-degree low angle strafe puts you pretty close to the dirt by the time you
cease fire.

It's simple.

Just do your strafing runs inverted.

;-)

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

"Hobo" wrote in message
...

Has there ever been an aircraft with a gun permanently aligned
off-center? I don't mean swivel mounted, but permanently fixed at a
point other than straight ahead.


Yes

Wouldn't a gun pointed at a downward angle make ground attack easier?

Possibly but the most obvious examples had the guns pointed UP
at around 30 degrees. German nightfighters in WW2 would position
themselves below and behind their target and fire at bombers
silouhetted against the dark sky.

Keith

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 22:31:58 GMT, Guy Alcala wrote:

I don't know how the F-18 is set up.

The F-15 is set up to "loft" the bullets (loft is the word I remember
reading, I just can't remember where I read it...) so I'd think MD did the
same with the Hornet.

-Jeff B. (with yet another cite-free post)
yeff at erols dot com

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police "R Haskin"
blurted out:

Unsuitable is certainly not the word for it. The F-15E community has not
traditionally strafed on a regular basis because of the upcanted gun -- a
10-degree low angle strafe puts you pretty close to the dirt by the time you
cease fire.

Well what would I know? I was a Viper guy.

I talked with Albino guys from Kadena that were experimenting with
surface attack...no strafe. When asked they said something like, "Are
you ****ing kidding? The gun points up, we'd have to bury the nose to
strafe."

They indicated that it was NOT suitable.

Because of the "demand" for bullets in Allied Force, Enduring Freedom, and
Iraqi Freedom, strafe is back in the F-15E vernacular bigtime.

Cool...

The F-14 was tilted up about 3 degrees IIRC. Allowed you to track with less
lead and closure and perhaps less likelihood of hitting the target.

R / John

"Hobo" wrote in message
...

Has there ever been an aircraft with a gun permanently aligned
off-center? I don't mean swivel mounted, but permanently fixed at a
point other than straight ahead.

Wouldn't a gun pointed at a downward angle make ground attack easier?

Curtiss F-type flying boats in WW1 had a Davis recoiless gun mounted
in the nose cockpit. It had to be fired downward because its recoil
counterweight was a charge of shot in a grease matrix fired out the
back end of the tube.
FWIW I understand the initial idea for the 'Puff' series gunships was
the technique of servicing missionary stations in the Amazon with
Piper Super Cubs by flying in a tight circle while lowering a bucket
on a rope. Due to aero drag on the rope the bucket lagged behind and
pivoted on the polar axis of the circle and the ground people could
remove their mail, etc, and place their outgoing mail and requests in
the bucket which was then hauled back up. The rotation was slow enough
to be no problem, and then the curvature of the rope reminded someone
of the trajectory of a gun so - voila!
As for strafing in the F15 with its upward gun - check the -34 for the
sight mil settings and fire further out so the bullets will drop down
below the extended water line. Time of flight will indicate how far
the bullets will drop - it is all solvable with simple trig.
Walt BJ

Yeff wrote:

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 22:31:58 GMT, Guy Alcala wrote:

I don't know how the F-18 is set up.

The F-15 is set up to "loft" the bullets (loft is the word I remember
reading, I just can't remember where I read it...) so I'd think MD did the
same with the Hornet.

That doesn't necessarily follow. Different missions, different services. The
F-15 was slanted A/A from the beginning, while the F-18 was originally two
variants, one fighter and one attack, which were later merged. I don't know
which was given priority as far as the gun alignment goes, or whether they
just left it in the middle. But if we ask on r.a.m.n., someone would probably
know.

Guy