More Sportplanes Hype

Whether or not a vehicle is a "toy" depends on how it is used. I think most
people would agree that a vehicle can be considered a "toy" if it is used
simply for pleasure and not transportation.

Most motorcylce owners fall into this category -- they go riding simply for
the fun of it -- the destination is secondary. They also usually own a car
for their actual transportation needs. If you use your bike for actual
transportation, then obviously it is a more than a toy for you.

Same thing with a boat -- even a big cabin cruiser or ocean-going yacht.
It's a toy because it's used as one. You don't use it to get to work, take
your kids to school, or make business trips.

However, I can't picture a scenario other than flight instructing, in which
these sportplanes would be used as anything but strictly pleasure craft.

Regards,

Gordon.



"Mark Hickey" wrote in message
...
"Gordon Arnaut" wrote:

You know the restrictions on sportplanes. They cannot provide the same
utility as a certified airplane -- they are for "sport flying" only --
hence
the "toy" descriptor, which, while not complimentary is not unduly unfair
either.

With your RV6, you can fly it IFR if you have the needed equipment. With a
sportplane, you can't even fly after dark.

When I moved to Arizona, I had to get a specialized motorcycle permit
to ride a bike. They have a temporary license that I could get by
just filling out a form, allowing me to ride my motorcycle with
certain exceptions - including avoiding interstates and riding after
dark.

My question is - did my BMW K100RS 1000cc sport touring bike become a
"toy" during the period I had that temporary license?

Mark Hickey

"Gordon Arnaut" wrote in message
...
If you don't like what I'm saying, why don't you challenge the substance
of my message?


I did. You said an 601XL class plane could be built with $10,000 worth of
labor. I said that statement was false and you simply changed the subject.

"Gordon Arnaut" wrote in
:

Yes, but does it matter how many people are going to buy said item at
a particular price point?

So far, almost nobody is buying these planes at the prices they are
seeking to get. That's pretty much the proof of the pudding right
there.

Regards,

Gordon.



All of the sportplanes that are currently on the EAA sLSA list are sold
out through February... (at least the original 12 that were on the list
as of Oshkosh). I know for a fact that Sportplanesusa sold (with a
$18,000 deposit check) 8 StingSports AT Oshkosh, I have no idea how many
they may have added to that list by now.


If you don't believe me, go to http://sportpilot.org/slsa/ , click on
each of the links, and call the each dealer and ask them availability.
Now admittedly, this may mean they only have a backlog of 5 or 6 planes
each, but they are selling as many as they can get over here at current
prices.

We are not really as far from the magic 50K price point as you may
think. The Allegro is/was offered at a base price of $58k, the Festival
was offered at Osh for under $65k;

"I" would love to see higher end sportplanes sold for about $50K, and I
think things will settle down a bit as competition increases, but for
now it's a seller's market.

--
-- ET :-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

"Gordon Arnaut" wrote in
:

Jerry,

You know the restrictions on sportplanes. They cannot provide the same
utility as a certified airplane -- they are for "sport flying" only --
hence the "toy" descriptor, which, while not complimentary is not
unduly unfair either.

With your RV6, you can fly it IFR if you have the needed equipment.
With a sportplane, you can't even fly after dark.

There is also the sensory aspect. Look at my comments about the Zlin
aerobat. An airplane that has a solidity about it in every part that
you touch gives off a special kind of satisfaction and confidence. A
lot of these sportplanes are quite flimsy especially the tactile items
in the cockpit.

The older airplanes that can fall under the sportplane rules can also
be flown without the sportplane restrictions, as long as you have a
medical. So it is not a direct comparison. But yeah, these are very
basic small palnes that don't exactly overwhelm you with feelings of
solidity either.

Nothing wrong with that, but it is a factor. People don't expect to
pay $50,000 for an ultralight, and they don't expect to pay $100,000
for what is basically an inflated version of the same thing.

Regards,

Gordon.



Those restrictions are only on a sport PILOT, not a sport PLANE. An
sLSA can fly at night, IFR, whatever, as long as they have the
appropriate equipment and appropiately rated PILOT....

Your's is a common misconception!


The higher end sportplanse have the speed and range capabilities of a
basic 172 with 1/2 to 2/3 the fuel burn.




--
-- ET :-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

Oh! Jim, is he the one attacking you on the wood subject?
"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Jerry Springer" wrote in message

Gordon, remind us again what it is that you have built or fly or own?

You all also might remember gordon's attacks on me, after me saying "bull"
to some of his assertions.

My advice? Put him in the kill file, quickly, and don't look back. He
won't be missed, nor will his bits of wisdom, or lack thereof.
--
Jim in NC

"Jean-Paul Roy" wrote in message
...
Oh! Jim, is he the one attacking you on the wood subject?

Indeed he was. He still is as clueless as ever.
--
Jim in NC

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:46:51 -0400, "Gordon Arnaut"
wrote:

With your RV6, you can fly it IFR if you have the needed equipment. With a
sportplane, you can't even fly after dark.

I don't believe you are correct here. With a Sport PILOT certificate,
you have that restriction, but I don't believe that there is any
restriction on an LSA being IFR equipped and certified, then being
flown at night by one with a Private pilot certificate or in actual
IMC with the IA endorsement.

What the hell is a "free" market?

I guess Enron was operating in a "free" market? Or Worldcom? Or Standard
Oil? Or the entire mutual fund industry which was successfully prosecuted by
the SEC a couple of years ago and forced to pay billions in restitution to
gipped investors, mostly mom and pop folks like you and me.

The laws of economics make fine reading out of some textbook, but it is the
Law of the Jungle that applies in the real world, my naive little friend. I
guess you didn't know that did you?

And in case you haven't been able to understand me clearly, my message is
very simple:

1. The sportplane sellers are pricing their product artificially high in
order to first skim off the low-hanging fruit -- the "desperate"
medical-less pilot who will buy at any price.

2. The stupid magazines are cheerleading whatever the sellers do because
they're used to having their heads stuck neck-deep in the rear-ends of
advertisers.

3. There is no real competition yet and prices will inevitably drop.

Regards,

Gordon.




"Richard Riley" wrote in message
...
On 22 Sep 2005 16:07:16 -0700, wrote:

:
:Gordon Arnaut wrote:
:
: What exactly is your point Hoover?
:
:-----------------------------------------------
:
:For those not familiar with the laws of economics, in a free market,
rice is determined by the amount someone is willing to pay for a
articular item or service.

And in a competitive market, the price will fall until the suppliers
are making no more than a normal rate of return - which is to say, the
risk free rate of return on their investment (typically the rate for
government bonds) plus a risk premium. The only way to get better
than that is to have a sustainable competitive advantage - a legal
monopoly, superior manufacturing that give a lower cost, perceived
premium quality, etc.

If it were possible for someone to sell a sportplane for $50k, someone
would do so. If it becomes possible due to changes in regulation or
technology, someone will.

Personally, I think I should be able to buy a house at the beach (out
of hurricane country), a Ferrari F-40, an 80' ocean going yacht or the
latest generation of MRI machine for $50k.

On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 21:37:54 -0400, "Gordon Arnaut" wrote:

1. The sportplane sellers are pricing their product artificially high in
order to first skim off the low-hanging fruit -- the "desperate"
medical-less pilot who will buy at any price.

"Desperate"? Someone lacking water can be desperate. Someone lacking
prescription medicine can be desperate.

But I don't see how ANYONE can be considered "desperate" because a *luxury item*
is priced above their price range.

Lower cost...MUCH lower cost...alternatives are widely available. A guy doesn't
have to spend $80,000 for a Legacy Cub. He can spend half that for a gen-u-wine
J-3. Or buy a brand-new ready-to-fly CGS Hawk for an eighth of the cost of the
SLSAs.

If they *are* overpriced, SLSA sales will be low and the manufacturers will
lower the price in an effort to stay in business.

Ron Wanttaja

Gordon Arnaut wrote:
What the hell is a "free" market?

On 22 Sep 2005 16:07:16 -0700, wrote:
:
:in a free market,
rice is determined by the amount someone is willing to pay for a
articular item or service.


Damn, Gordon. If you're going to try to participate in an online
discussion with adults, learn to read.

--
This is by far the hardest lesson about freedom. It goes against
instinct, and morality, to just sit back and watch people make
mistakes. We want to help them, which means control them and their
decisions, but in doing so we actually hurt them (and ourselves)."