Charging for Wings safety seminar?

Because when these things are "free", like everything else, you get what you
pay for.


And who should pay for the benefit to the public of safer pilots? The public,
no?

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:46:12 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller"
wrote:


"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


Tom Sixkiller wrote:

"Richard Russell" wrote in message
...

Hopefully, this is an isolated incident.

Hopefully it isn't.

Why?

Because when these things are "free", like everything else, you get what you
pay for.



I disagree. When we say free, in this context, we're talking about
free to the end user (the pilot). If these seminars are part of the
FAA's mission or mandate and they are funded they have the potential
to be of some value. I have taken something away from everyone that I
have attended.
Rich Russell

"Richard Russell" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:46:12 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller"
wrote:


"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


Tom Sixkiller wrote:

"Richard Russell" wrote in message
...

Hopefully, this is an isolated incident.

Hopefully it isn't.

Why?

Because when these things are "free", like everything else, you get what
you
pay for.



I disagree. When we say free, in this context, we're talking about
free to the end user (the pilot). If these seminars are part of the
FAA's mission or mandate and they are funded they have the potential
to be of some value. I have taken something away from everyone that I
have attended.

Okay...but similarly, I was offered a free seminar like that for driving (by
my insurance company). It was totally worthless, akin to a high school
drivers ed class.

A class that was worthwhile was the Bondurant School....but it was $1500.

For flying, the Bonanza Pilot Performance Program is worth spending some
$$$.

I find that free government seminars are more bureaucratic "number
crunching", but then maybe this is that one in a thousand that isn't.

Tom Sixkiller wrote:

Because when these things are "free", like everything else, you get what you
pay for.

Ah. In this case, however, it seems that the lecture will be the same old stuff
provided free of charge by the FAA and it's simply the hosts that have decided to
charge. *If* that's the case, we will see not improvement in program quality due to
the fee (though perhaps the refreshments will be good. They ought to be excellent for
$30).

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in
:


"Richard Russell" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:46:12 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller"
wrote:


"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


Tom Sixkiller wrote:

"Richard Russell" wrote in message
...

Hopefully, this is an isolated incident.

Hopefully it isn't.

Why?

Because when these things are "free", like everything else, you get
what
you
pay for.



I disagree. When we say free, in this context, we're talking about
free to the end user (the pilot). If these seminars are part of the
FAA's mission or mandate and they are funded they have the potential
to be of some value. I have taken something away from everyone that
I have attended.

Okay...but similarly, I was offered a free seminar like that for
driving (by my insurance company). It was totally worthless, akin to a
high school drivers ed class.

A class that was worthwhile was the Bondurant School....but it was
$1500.

For flying, the Bonanza Pilot Performance Program is worth spending
some $$$.

I find that free government seminars are more bureaucratic "number
crunching", but then maybe this is that one in a thousand that isn't.






Price can be, but is not always, an indicator of quality. One of the
best Wings seminars I've attended was on icing. It was given by one of the
NASA scientests who worked on icing research at NASA's John H. Glenn
Research Center at Lewis Field. One bonus of attending was they
distributed the NASA In-Flight Icing Training for Pilots DVD and CD-ROM for
free. (You can also buy this from Sporty's for the $5.00 distribution cost
and you are expressley permitted to copy and distribute it.) There was no
charge for this Wings safety seminar and SONY donated the use of their
state-of-the-art A/V demonstration conference facility to hold it.

The Wings safety seminar which led to my original question was on
flying a sight seeing tour through the local class B airspace. I've been
to several of these (all free) and always pickied up good tips and pointers
at each one. The best one was free w/refreshments and had an ATC
controller presenting who both worked at a local tower AND was a private
pilot. He was able to give us the perspective from both sides of the
microphone.

A few years ago, when the FAA still had some money, they would sponsor
all day Wings safety seminars. One was at the county convention center.
Again, this was free for attendees, even though some of the speakers were
paid and the convention center was not free. Two of the better
presentations were one on fuel management and fuel reserves given by an
United Airlines captain and one on weather interpretation by a local TV
weatherman (who was also a meteorologist and a pilot).

I'm sure the Bondurant school was outstanding. But, when you found
out about it, was it advertised in context with free driving seminars, or
was it clearly advertised as having a fee?

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in
:



Tom Sixkiller wrote:

Because when these things are "free", like everything else, you get
what you pay for.

Ah. In this case, however, it seems that the lecture will be the same
old stuff provided free of charge by the FAA and it's simply the hosts
that have decided to charge. *If* that's the case, we will see not
improvement in program quality due to the fee (though perhaps the
refreshments will be good. They ought to be excellent for $30).

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

The advertisements (at least the ones I saw) for this particular seminar
did not mention refreshments.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

"Marty Shapiro" wrote in message
...
"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in
:
For flying, the Bonanza Pilot Performance Program is worth spending
some $$$.

I find that free government seminars are more bureaucratic "number
crunching", but then maybe this is that one in a thousand that isn't.


Price can be, but is not always, an indicator of quality.

Price (I find) is SELDOM an indicator of quality.
What many people confuse are the terms * Price, * VALUE, and * quality. I'm
sure we've all seen the joke about the PRICE of a gallon of gasoline
compared with things like similar quantities of bottled water, beer, cough
medicine...

Often, ego plays a big part. :~) A Honda Accord will get you somewhere just
as nicely as a Mercedes-Benz, and even be more dependable, but as one person
put it, it's not as efficient for getting chicks.

A few years ago, when the FAA still had some money, they would
sponsor
all day Wings safety seminars. One was at the county convention center.
Again, this was free for attendees, even though some of the speakers were
paid and the convention center was not free. Two of the better
presentations were one on fuel management and fuel reserves given by an
United Airlines captain and one on weather interpretation by a local TV
weatherman (who was also a meteorologist and a pilot).

Sounds like a pleasant abberation from the bureaucratic norm.

Just for perspective, how many have been well done, and how many
were...otherwise?

I'm sure the Bondurant school was outstanding. But, when you found
out about it, was it advertised in context with free driving seminars, or
was it clearly advertised as having a fee?

Oh, it definitely advertised it's fees. And there definitely were no
freebies. Like the BPPP (which I'll attend this year) or the Advanced Pilot
Seminars (Deakin, Braly) or Mountain Flying courses, there's reasons they
cost $$$, but they better deliver!!

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in
:



A few years ago, when the FAA still had some money, they would
sponsor
all day Wings safety seminars. One was at the county convention
center. Again, this was free for attendees, even though some of the
speakers were paid and the convention center was not free. Two of
the better presentations were one on fuel management and fuel
reserves given by an United Airlines captain and one on weather
interpretation by a local TV weatherman (who was also a meteorologist
and a pilot).

Sounds like a pleasant abberation from the bureaucratic norm.

Just for perspective, how many have been well done, and how many
were...otherwise?

To me the question is how many seminars were worth the time I invested to
attend. If I learned something which I felt made me a better pilot, I
considered the seminar worth my time. Using this defination, I would say
at least 90% of the ones I've attended were worth while. Maybe I've just
been lucky.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 17:55:58 +0000, Marty Shapiro wrote:

I local flying club advertised a Wings safety seminar for which they
would charge $30. This was done in an message to a distribution list for
local area pilots. Interestingly, if one went to the FAASafety.gov web
pages and noticed this seminar, there was no mention of a charge, and one
could sign up for the seminar directly from the FAASafety web page.

I've been attending wings safety seminars for over 10 years and this
is the first one I've seen which asked attendees to pay. Many seminars in
fact went out of their way to encourage attendance by offering free
refreshments and/or door prizes, including one which featured John &
Martha King.

I have two questions:

1) Is it now FAA policy to charge for Wings safety seminars, and, if
so, could this tend to discurage pilots from attending and/or participation
in the Wings program?

2) Do other clubs and/or areas have charges for Wings safety
seminars?

Can you point me to a website that talks about the Wings program?

Thanks,

Greg Copeland

Greg Copeland wrote in
news

Can you point me to a website that talks about the Wings program?

Thanks,

Greg Copeland




Information on the Wings program in contained in AC 61-91. The latest
version can be found at:

http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/safety/WINGS.cfm

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)