What if the germans...

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On 19 Jan 2004 05:04:50 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:



None, rpt none, of the yellow cake captured from Germany was used
in the US nuclear program. As for "radiological weapons" that is
a complete lie. Without an operating reactor you are not going to
build "radiological" weapons. Germany was nowhere near building
a reactor, much less a bomb. Japan was no closer.

Der Fuhrer is dead, get over it.

Al Minyard

While sympathising with the general tenor of your argument
and agreeing that none of the Uranium found its way into
the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs its is known that it
was added to DOD stocks and likely did indeed up in later weapons.

Keith

From: (robert arndt)


(B2431) wrote in message

From: (Denyav)


But the Germans were no where
near building a reactor, much less a bomb. Thus the choice of moderator
was inconsequential.

Germans had not one but two graphite moderated reactors and one of them was
in Thuringer Forest,if Germans had no working reactor Hirosima and Nagazaki
could not be bombed anytime in 1945.
Did you ever wonder why the entries made to log book of 89.th Infantry
div.between 4;8. 45 1,35 PM and 4.11.45 7,35 PM are also among document
that were classified for 75 years?.

Where did you get that idea?

Are you suggesting the U.S. had not developed uranium and plutonium
enrichment facilities prior to May 1945?

Are you suggesting the U.S. had not built any form of reactor or pile prior
to May 1945?

The Little Boy bomb and Trinity were just waiting for uranium and plutonium
respectively.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

Captured German uranium was used in the construction of the US atomic
bombs, seized from the Belgian Congo stocks Germany possessed. Germany
also had seperate atomic research facilities, Haigerloch being only
one. Another was working on a spherical reactor for power project as
well as the two radiological weapons found under construction at the
end of the war. Although Germany did not build a bomb itself it did
technology transfer uranium to Japan's program in occupied Korea
(Japan's Genzai Bakudan bomb)... which we still have little
information about (classified).
Further still, Germany also knew about the possibilities of a
thermonuclear weapon in 1944 and nuclear power for submarines.
One can only wonder what would have happened if Hitler had not
persecuted the Jews nor regarded the German atomic research project as
"Jewish Physics" with little funding and no Fuhrer directive to build
such a weapon (Hitler was preoccupied with the wasteful V-weapons
programs). Had the SS Scientific Branch harnassed the mindpower and
manpower of Europe for an official German bomb project there is little
doubt the Germans would have had the bomb first and used it, probably
in 1944.
Say what you want, but both Germany's and Japan's wartime atomic
projects are still not complete as "sensitve material" is still
classified for both. What we are being fed is the same old stale
stories of "they were way behind and we succeded because of our fears
of a Nazi bomb" when all they really had was a small unorganized
research program and impure graphite.
That is just not accurate enough...but makes good official US history.

The Manhattan team also had theories about nuclear power and thermonuclear
devices.

I know you have managed to convince yourself the Nazis, especially your beloved
SS, were the source of all modern technology but ask yourself why you feel the
need to constantly refer to classified documents that only you know the
contents of.

As for uranium the U.S. did capture a U-boat that contained either uranium
oxide or enriched uranium depending on whom you believe. Big deal. The U.S. had
ample uranium supplies and had been enriching uranium for at least a year. Your
Nazi buddies had no enrichment facilities aproaching the scale of Hanford and
Oak Ridge. If the captured Nazi uranium was used in the Little Boy bomb you
can't prove it.

As for your contention the SS pigs would have been able to produce a bomb by
1944 you need to provide some evidence. The Nazis did have the "mindpower" they
just never had the massive funding and man power Manhattan had. Had the pigs
put as much money into the bomb project as the U.S. did I would venture to say
Germany would have been bankrupt by 1942 and probably been defeated or forced
to sue for peace. There is now way the could have funded the war and the bomb
at the same time.

I believe the Nazi atom scientists were in thoroughly bugged quarters in
England at the time the bombs were dropped. They were shocked at how far off
they were in their estimations. They knew how far behind the curve they were.

I'm sorry your faith in the Nazi pigs is so blind that you have to rely on
mysterious classified documents to back up your claims. I put that in the same
dustbin I put the captured UFO garbage. What will you do when those mysterious
classified documents are declassified and they don't back you up? Did it ever
occur to you those documents may be classified simply to protect sources and
methods?

Question, do you celebrate Hitler's bithday by chanting "six million more?"

Dan, U. Air Force, retired

"B2431" wrote in message
...
From: (robert arndt)


I believe the Nazi atom scientists were in thoroughly bugged quarters in
England at the time the bombs were dropped. They were shocked at how far
off
they were in their estimations. They knew how far behind the curve they
were.


Perfectly true, their reaction to the news of the Hiroshima
bomb was initially disbelief. They firmly believed they
were in the lead and since they 'knew' a bomb was years
away there was no way the western allies could have done this.

Keith

None, rpt none, of the yellow cake captured from Germany was used
in the US nuclear program. As for "radiological weapons" that is
a complete lie. Without an operating reactor you are not going to
build "radiological" weapons. Germany was nowhere near

Actually Germans even tested a Nuclear Bomb,but the name "neutron bomb" has
been invented much later.

From: (Denyav)
Date: 1/19/2004 10:42 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

None, rpt none, of the yellow cake captured from Germany was used
in the US nuclear program. As for "radiological weapons" that is
a complete lie. Without an operating reactor you are not going to
build "radiological" weapons. Germany was nowhere near

Actually Germans even tested a Nuclear Bomb,but the name "neutron bomb" has
been invented much later.

Prove it.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I know you have managed to convince yourself the Nazis, especially your
beloved
SS, were the source of all modern technology but ask yourself why you feel
the
need to constantly refer to classified documents that only you know the

The favorite SS man of US,USSR,Germany and Israel seems to be Hans Kammler,co
architect of final solution and killer of tens of thousands of forced laborers.
THis top Nazi has not been charged with anything up to now and his name only
once appeared in allied documents (by mistake I guess)

As for uranium the U.S. did capture a U-boat that contained either uranium
oxide or enriched uranium depending on whom you believe. Big deal. The U.S.
had
ample uranium supplies and had been enriching uranium for at least a year.
Your

At the beginning of april 45 Manhattan project was going nowhere,within two
weeks everything suddenly changed.
Nazi buddies had no enrichment facilities aproaching the scale of Hanford and
Oak Ridge. If the captured Nazi uranium was used in the Little Boy bomb you
can't prove it.

German centrifuge technology was decades ahead of the rest of the world in
45,so the energy guzzling plants like Hanford and Oak Ridge were already
obsolete in 1945,moreover because of their energy saving centrifuge technology
Germans did not need big energy supporters like TVA.
Little Boy did not only use German uranium it was a bomb "Assembled in USA from
German components"

As for your contention the SS pigs would have been able to produce a bomb by
1944 you need to provide some evidence. The Nazis did have the "mindpower"
they

#1 SS pig was undoubletely Hans Kammler but he is only top Nazi that has not
been charged anything up to now.
He was responsible for german S weapon development and he was co-architect of
final solution.
I am pretty sure he went to US,instead of gallows.

Had the pigs
put as much money into the bomb project as the U.S. did I would venture to
say
Germany would have been bankrupt by 1942 and probably been defeated or forced
to sue for peace. There is now way the could have funded the war and the bomb

US had to select wrong technology to produce nuclear for a reason,US was a
backward country as far as centrifuge technology concerned,problems in
development gas centrufuges in US continued even after post WWII so in fifties
US research instutitions launched a campaign to bring Dr.Zippe,developer of
German and later Soviet centrifuges to US.
Serious US centrifuge development startted with the arrival of Dr.Zippe.
He is generaly considered as the father of centrifuge development in both
Germany,Soviet Union and US (in historical order)

you up? Did it ever
occur to you those documents may be classified simply to protect sources and
methods?

Maybe but more likely to avoid loyalty and patent fees.

Perfectly true, their reaction to the news of the Hiroshima
bomb was initially disbelief. They firmly believed they
were in the lead and since they 'knew' a bomb was years
away there was no way the western allies could have done this.

Farm Hall was a well the part of misinformation campaign of the victors.

First message they want convey was "German Scientist were unable to calculate
critical mass"
But they had a problem namely according Wehrmact documents a Wehrmact physicist
(Deibner)calculated critical mass exactly and reported it to Wehrmact in
Feb.42.
So apparently German scientists forgat in Farm Hall what they knew in Feb42!!.
So this misinformation campaign collapsed but another one launched to replace
it namely "Good German scientists (Heisenberg)sabotaged evil Nazis nuclear bomb
making plans"
This could be good starting point for a Hollywood movie but licht years away
from the reality.Heisenberg could not sabotage anything because he was wrong in
41 as he was in 45.
Only key person in German nuclear program who might have a reason to sabotage
program was Houtermans but his background was very well known,anything less
than success would mean sure death for Houtermans and probably for his family.

BTW according to pre Farm Hall planning,only two of Farm Hall Guests supposed
to leave Farm Hall as free man.,but none of them got jailed.
Food for thought.

Further still, Germany also knew about the possibilities of a
thermonuclear weapon in 1944 and nuclear power for submarines.
One can only wonder what would have happened if Hitler had not
persecuted the Jews nor regarded

Nazis looked down Einsteinian general relativitivity as Jewish science,but on
other hand they considered QM as an Aryan science and supported it pretty well.
Nazis attitude towards Jewish physics started to change after Hahn and Meissner

splitted atom mainly due efforts of Ohrensorge,who was a true believer of
nuclear power both in military and civilian uses and more importantly,could
speak directly to Hitler.

No its what the German physicists themselves and German records
say. Who else should we listen to if not men like Diebner, Heisenberg
etc.

All Farm Hall transcripts are edited,even in no portion of edited and
carefully selected transcripts you cannot find anything that suggests that
Deibner is unaware of A-Bomb.
Only conclusion you can draw from transcripts that the relationship between
Heisenberg and Diebner must be terrible,they probably hated each other.

Who else should you listen other than Deibner ?for example other fathers of
German bomb von Ardenne and Houtermans? But they had unfortunately no time to
participate in PR efforts of western allies,they were building the Soviet
Bomb.
Or you might want to check Daily Mail dated 8.9.45

"Denyav" wrote in message
...


#1 SS pig was undoubletely Hans Kammler but he is only top Nazi that has
not
been charged anything up to now.

He was never found , its hard to try a prisoner you dont have.

snip

US had to select wrong technology to produce nuclear for a reason,US was a
backward country as far as centrifuge technology concerned,problems in
development gas centrufuges in US continued even after post WWII so in
fifties

As they did in all countries, Urenco a joint Dutch, German and UK firm
only perfected the technology in the 1960's

Prior to that everyone used a combination of diffusion and
cyclotron technologies

Keith