Best Glider for Altitude Record Attempt?

PW-5.

You could set "World Class" altitude records without even using oxygen.

Jerome Conners wrote in message ...
What glider will provide the best characteristics for
mountain wave ascents to record heights?

What are those characteristics...air foil design, lofting
characteristics, L/D ratio, oxygen system, etc.

What publications provide the design information for
mountain wave ascents?

Jer
Jerome Conners, PE
Comstock Aeronautics and Engineering
PO Box 509
Virginia City, NV 89440
775-834-8363 (work)
775-834-8364 (FAX)
775-847-0214 (home)

If you are talking world records then anything you look at will need to be
either pressurised or big enough to allow you to fly in a spacesuit. You
will need the manufacturers assistance to develop a variant with a higher
VNE and probably control surfaces ballasted beyond the 100% range to get
their flutter speeds as high as possible.

If you want to go high for a national record most glass ships will get you
to the 40k mark given the right conditions.

Get ready to dig deep into your wallet, short of incredible luck setting
soaring records is IMHO purely a money thing. Any plonker with a big enough
wallet can do it.

Ian

Why bother?

"Liam Finley" wrote in message
om...
PW-5.

You could set "World Class" altitude records without even using oxygen.

Jerome Conners wrote in message
...
What glider will provide the best characteristics for
mountain wave ascents to record heights?

What are those characteristics...air foil design, lofting
characteristics, L/D ratio, oxygen system, etc.

What publications provide the design information for
mountain wave ascents?

Jer
Jerome Conners, PE
Comstock Aeronautics and Engineering
PO Box 509
Virginia City, NV 89440
775-834-8363 (work)
775-834-8364 (FAX)
775-847-0214 (home)

I don't agree that it's "purely a money thing", but it certainly helps. Not
only with respect to altitude records, but also many distance and speed
records.I suppose that if you have enough money and interest you can hire a
real pilot to fly your two place ship for you and go down in the record books.
Perhaps it's my old age showing, but I think of the pioneering flights of
Scott, Streidick, ect. as legendary (See also Taming the Monster). These were
primarily individuals pushing the limits. Many contemporary records and record
attempts sound more like goverment projects. I wonder if they will be viewed
with the same awe.

RWEpp wrote:
I don't agree that it's "purely a money thing", but it certainly helps. Not
only with respect to altitude records, but also many distance and speed
records.I suppose that if you have enough money and interest you can hire a
real pilot to fly your two place ship for you and go down in the record books.
Perhaps it's my old age showing, but I think of the pioneering flights of
Scott, Streidick, ect. as legendary (See also Taming the Monster). These were
primarily individuals pushing the limits. Many contemporary records and record
attempts sound more like goverment projects. I wonder if they will be viewed
with the same awe.

Well, I believe the National and World records for altitude
both require a "level 1" calibration facility for your
logger, and don't allow the use of trusty old barographs.
Something about a calibration within ten days after the
flight also...

I called the only level 1 listed on the www.ssa.org/Calibration.asp
website "Airtech Instrument Co." and thought I was talking to
aliens. They had no idea what I was asking, and
said they didn't do that, and wondered why anyone would want
to calibrate a Volkswagon.

So I sent it to trusy old Carl Herold, a level 2
calibration facility. No hassle, cheap, quick turnaround,
and got some state records instead.

I think some of the reason there are so many open records
(the NV motorglider records are all open), is the "hassle factor."

Instead of strong fingers to wind the $200 baro, some tape,
a pen and a bit of baro paper, one needs a thousand dollar device,
a continuous power source, a computer, and an O/O who is
sophisticated with computers. A much rarer find indeed.

There are times when perfection hinders efficiency...

Mark James Boyd wrote:

I think some of the reason there are so many open records
(the NV motorglider records are all open),

Uh, actually, they are some of the highest in the nation, as some of the
are also National records. Try this URL:

http://www.geocities.com/nvsoar/nv.html
Nevada State Soaring Records

and you will see that only two of the unrestricted records are open
(most of the Feminine records are open).

is the "hassle factor."

But this remark is correct on a State level. It is easier now with
flight recorders, and for speed records, it's _much_ easier, but many
people don't realize this.

Instead of strong fingers to wind the $200 baro, some tape,
a pen and a bit of baro paper, one needs a thousand dollar device,
a continuous power source, a computer, and an O/O who is
sophisticated with computers. A much rarer find indeed.

You can still use the "$200 baro, some tape, a pen and a bit of baro
paper" if you wish, but now there are other options. If you don't want
to buy a flight recorder, try borrowing one (like we used to borrow
barographs) or buy one as a partnership. The power to run them is
minimal, computers are everywhere, and the OO doesn't need to be
computer "sophisticated". Running one of the programs (there are several
available) to check the flight is easy. We have more people in our club
that can run SeeYou than can qualify as OOs - computer "expertise" is
widespread these days.

I flew for five different records this year, including 3 speed records,
using a flight recorder, and the "hassle" is minimal and comes after
the flight, in the evening, with a beer in one hand. I would never have
tried the speed records without a flight recorder, because the visual
gate required is a big hassle. For non-speed records, the flight
recorder is still easier, but not by as much.

--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

In article 3fdcc446$1@darkstar, Mark James Boyd
writes

snip

Well, I believe the National and World records for altitude
both require a "level 1" calibration facility for your
logger, and don't allow the use of trusty old barographs.
Something about a calibration within ten days after the
flight also...

Its mostly in the Sporting Code and is not quite what you say above.

There are no "levels" of IGC calibration facility, this must be an SSA
thing.

World records do indeed require a flight recorder that is IGC-approved
for world record flights. A straight drum baro is not enough, as you
say.

Pressure altitude calibrations must be done within 2 years before the
flight and also a check calibration up to one month after. This general
rule has been in for records for many years, the only difference being
that for non-IGC-approved recorders the period is one year, not two.
For badges the calibrations are "either/or" and not "both" as for
records. Earlier this year I proposed that for IGC-approved flight
recorders the post-flight period should be extended to the same ratio as
the pre-flight (ie to two months) but I cannot get through to the FAI
web site at the moment to see whether that got into the Code for the
edition valid from 1 Oct 2003.

--
Ian Strachan

Bentworth Hall West
Tel: +44 1420 564 195 Bentworth, Alton
Fax: +44 1420 563 140 Hampshire GU34 5LA, ENGLAND

Ian Strachan wrote:

Well, I believe the National and World records for altitude
both require a "level 1" calibration facility for your
logger, and don't allow the use of trusty old barographs.

There are no "levels" of IGC calibration facility, this must be an SSA
thing.

Perhaps they are just paraphrasing. I don't know the
validity of the information on the website. If in fact
Carl Herold's calibration of my Volkslogger is valid for
World Record altitude attempts, I would be interested, since this
directly contradicts www.ssa.org/Calibration.asp


World records do indeed require a flight recorder that is IGC-approved
for world record flights. A straight drum baro is not enough, as you
say.


When did this change, and why? Drum baros are stone cold simple.
Flight recorders are not. I'm baffled why such a robust and
cheap system would be discarded.

Pressure altitude calibrations must be done within 2 years before the
flight and also a check calibration up to one month after. This general
rule has been in for records for many years, the only difference being
that for non-IGC-approved recorders the period is one year, not two.
For badges the calibrations are "either/or" and not "both" as for
records. Earlier this year I proposed that for IGC-approved flight
recorders the post-flight period should be extended to the same ratio as
the pre-flight (ie to two months) but I cannot get through to the FAI
web site at the moment to see whether that got into the Code for the
edition valid from 1 Oct 2003.


Ian, good for you trying to get the IGC to make the technicalities and
timelines less daunting. If it comes up, encourage those same
folks to continue to allow drum baros and to simplify the
technicalities of badge and record soaring whenever possible.
I for one was certainly daunted by the volume of technical
requirements, and ultimately choose to forego two world record
attempts because of these barriers (can't use drum baro,
calibration facilities rare, lack of O/O confident with
computer use, etc.).

--
Ian Strachan

Bentworth Hall West
Tel: +44 1420 564 195 Bentworth, Alton
Fax: +44 1420 563 140 Hampshire GU34 5LA, ENGLAND

To advance the world altitude record above its current level, or even
to get where it is now, will take a ton of money _and_ incredible good
luck.


I agree that the general record would take a great effort to
beat, but there are TONS of other records that are very ripe for
setting (still open) or breaking. And I think that these are
very fun to do as well. Perhaps most of all, these give
newer and more novice pilots something to strive for
and compare their flights to.

I for one applaud the efforts of the record keepers, and
use my little, framed, state soaring record certificate
to lure unsuspecting pilots into soaring

Now if I could only get that darned PASCO egg...

Earlier, "tango4" wrote:

Get ready to dig deep into your wallet, short of incredible luck setting
soaring records is IMHO purely a money thing. Any plonker with a big enough
wallet can do it.

I disagree on this simple basis:

To advance the world altitude record above its current level, or even
to get where it is now, will take a ton of money _and_ incredible good
luck.

The wave conditions that lofted Harris '86 and Bickle '61 were not
everyday or even every year kinds of conditions. From talking to
various folks, it seems that both days were some of the best wave
conditions for several years before and since.

As I've posted earlier, I've done a design survey of what it would
take to beat Fossett to the 100k mark (or as near as he's going to
get). Near as I can tell, the aircraft and systems and development
would cost on the order of $1.5 meg (Y2001 dollars), and the whole
program of schlepping it around the world for the three or six years
that it would probably take to hook the big one would cost many
millions more. Sure, your typical International Person of Adventure
has got the pocket change for that. But do they have the patience to
stick with it, and the luck to be at the right place at the right
time, with all their infrastructure ducks in a row?

I think that a relatively ordinary glider will get you to the
Bickle/Harris kinds of heights. But as others have pointed out, to get
much higher you're going to need pressurization and/or (preferably
_and_) space suits. And if you're going to go that far, you might as
well go whole hog.

Thanks again, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com/