Winch Experts wanted

"Bob Korves" wrote in message
...

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
...
demand. With 3000 + foot pounds of torque available on these large
diesels,

3000+ foot pounds?? Bill, you really are talking "big"! Is that just in
case a Horsa, CG-4a, or Gotha 242 shows up looking for a tow?


Yes, well, I had been reading the specs for the CAT 3408 which is kinda
overkill.

Bill Daniels

(Marcel Duenner) wrote in message . com...
Marc Ramsey wrote in message .com...
Martin Gregorie wrote:
If you have a diesel driving through a fluid flywheel you don't need
that much power: we have a Supacat with a 245 hp Deutz V8 aircooled
industrial diesel and torque converter (no gearbox). This can launch
an ASH-25 or just about any Nimbus. With a 15 m glider, K-21 or Grob
you'd expect 1200-1400 ft on a 1000m run in calm conditions and over
2000 ft if its blowing a bit.

I think the difference is that Bill is considering operating at much
higher density altitudes. In the western US, there are many glider
operations where summer density altitudes are in the 8000+ foot range.

Marc


So?
Our setup: 222kW (300hp) turbocharged diesel, 6 drums, 1000m of steel
cable. This winch has handled everything including a 4DM. Even a
slight tailwind and a ASH25 are no real problem.
Samedan, the highest airport in Europe at over 5600ft MSL, has the
same winch with four drums. No problems at all. It's heaven compared
to the voluminous petrol monster they had before.

Just wondering if they had yanked out the engine in the "voluminous
petrol monster" and replaced it with some diesel engine would
they have had a "voluminous diesel monster" or would it have been
"heaven"? Point is there is much more to consider than just powerplant
when it comes to judging a machine. Chances are there are other things
to consider, like drivetrains, drums, to level wind or not, operator
comfort, control panels, comunications, cooling systems, maintainence,
portability, availability of parts, ect. ect. ect.

Craig-
BTW these winches use an average of 0.4 litres of Diesel per launch.

"Craig Freeman" wrote in message
So?
Our setup: 222kW (300hp) turbocharged diesel, 6 drums, 1000m of steel
cable. This winch has handled everything including a 4DM. Even a
slight tailwind and a ASH25 are no real problem.
Samedan, the highest airport in Europe at over 5600ft MSL, has the
same winch with four drums. No problems at all. It's heaven compared
to the voluminous petrol monster they had before.

Just wondering if they had yanked out the engine in the "voluminous
petrol monster" and replaced it with some diesel engine would
they have had a "voluminous diesel monster" or would it have been
"heaven"? Point is there is much more to consider than just powerplant
when it comes to judging a machine. Chances are there are other things
to consider, like drivetrains, drums, to level wind or not, operator
comfort, control panels, comunications, cooling systems, maintainence,
portability, availability of parts, ect. ect. ect.

Craig-
BTW these winches use an average of 0.4 litres of Diesel per launch.

Credit where credit is due.

Craig Freeman has actually built a winch - a damn good one - all by himself.
He gets my attention.

Bill Daniels

Sorry guys

But I think you are all looking in the wrong direction
re diesel winch launches......

I have read the previous 40 something posts on this
subject but no one has mentioned the LPG route, gives
both the acceleration of petrol with the cost savings
of diesel.


www.skylaunch.co.uk is a web site of a manufacturer
of a petrol/LPG driven winch of which I can give a
personal recomendation of being the best winch I have
operated over the last 25 years, as I have flown mainly
from winch sites then I consider myself an expert (
ex as in has been and spert as something under pressure)
I also am expecting at least a bottle of single malt
from my 'friends' at skylaunch ;-))

Ged




At 20:30 21 March 2004, Bill Daniels wrote:

'Craig Freeman' wrote in message
So?
Our setup: 222kW (300hp) turbocharged diesel, 6 drums,
1000m of steel
cable. This winch has handled everything including
a 4DM. Even a
slight tailwind and a ASH25 are no real problem.
Samedan, the highest airport in Europe at over 5600ft
MSL, has the
same winch with four drums. No problems at all. It's
heaven compared
to the voluminous petrol monster they had before.

Just wondering if they had yanked out the engine in
the 'voluminous
petrol monster' and replaced it with some diesel engine
would
they have had a 'voluminous diesel monster' or would
it have been
'heaven'? Point is there is much more to consider
than just powerplant
when it comes to judging a machine. Chances are there
are other things
to consider, like drivetrains, drums, to level wind
or not, operator
comfort, control panels, comunications, cooling systems,
maintainence,
portability, availability of parts, ect. ect. ect.

Craig-
BTW these winches use an average of 0.4 litres of
Diesel per launch.

Credit where credit is due.

Craig Freeman has actually built a winch - a damn good
one - all by himself.
He gets my attention.

Bill Daniels

I second this. My club (Cotswold) has used reverse auto tow, then
Skylaunch. I have flown recently using Supercat. The Skylaunch wins
hand down in both height and reliability/consistency. I also have a
fair amount of experience driving the Skylaunch and know that it is very
flexible and allows good control of light gliders (Ka8), gliders with a
narrow speed range (SHK) and heavy beasts ASH and so on.

LPG also works well in terms of cost and refuelling.

Regards

Robin

In message , Ged McKnight
writes
Sorry guys

But I think you are all looking in the wrong direction
re diesel winch launches......

I have read the previous 40 something posts on this
subject but no one has mentioned the LPG route, gives
both the acceleration of petrol with the cost savings
of diesel.


www.skylaunch.co.uk is a web site of a manufacturer
of a petrol/LPG driven winch of which I can give a
personal recomendation of being the best winch I have
operated over the last 25 years, as I have flown mainly
from winch sites then I consider myself an expert (
ex as in has been and spert as something under pressure)
I also am expecting at least a bottle of single malt
from my 'friends' at skylaunch ;-))

Ged




At 20:30 21 March 2004, Bill Daniels wrote:

'Craig Freeman' wrote in message
So?
Our setup: 222kW (300hp) turbocharged diesel, 6 drums,
1000m of steel
cable. This winch has handled everything including
a 4DM. Even a
slight tailwind and a ASH25 are no real problem.
Samedan, the highest airport in Europe at over 5600ft
MSL, has the
same winch with four drums. No problems at all. It's
heaven compared
to the voluminous petrol monster they had before.

Just wondering if they had yanked out the engine in
the 'voluminous
petrol monster' and replaced it with some diesel engine
would
they have had a 'voluminous diesel monster' or would
it have been
'heaven'? Point is there is much more to consider
than just powerplant
when it comes to judging a machine. Chances are there
are other things
to consider, like drivetrains, drums, to level wind
or not, operator
comfort, control panels, comunications, cooling systems,
maintainence,
portability, availability of parts, ect. ect. ect.

Craig-
BTW these winches use an average of 0.4 litres of
Diesel per launch.

Credit where credit is due.

Craig Freeman has actually built a winch - a damn good
one - all by himself.
He gets my attention.

Bill Daniels






--
Robin Birch

Robin, Ged, for the UK, LPG is the right choice.

In the USA LPG or propane is still used mainly for domestic heating and
cooking and is sold for that purpose. To convert a spark ignition engine to
LPG is an extra $3000 or so and then fuel availability becomes an issue. It
can be done and it would work as well here as in the UK but there's no cost
reason to do it since LPG costs about the same or greater than petrol.

Diesels are reasonably cheap here and the fuel is readily available as
untaxed "red diesel" for as little as $1 per gallon. Biodiesel is a bit
more. In the USA fuel cost for a glider winch is a non-issue contributing
as little as $0.10 per launch. The "big" consumable item in the launch cost
is cable replacement at about $1 per launch. I like turbo diesels mainly
for their flat torque curve and the altitude compensation.

Not related to winches, but I once watched a demonstration of running a
standby diesel generator on natural gas. Basically, they just piped the
natural gas into the engine's air inlet. When they opened the natural gas
valve, the engine governor cut back on the diesel fuel to compensate for the
extra BTU's from the natural gas. The small amount of diesel fuel still
consumed was just for ignition.

Bill Daniels


"Robin Birch" wrote in message
...
I second this. My club (Cotswold) has used reverse auto tow, then
Skylaunch. I have flown recently using Supercat. The Skylaunch wins
hand down in both height and reliability/consistency. I also have a
fair amount of experience driving the Skylaunch and know that it is very
flexible and allows good control of light gliders (Ka8), gliders with a
narrow speed range (SHK) and heavy beasts ASH and so on.

LPG also works well in terms of cost and refuelling.

Regards

Robin

In message , Ged McKnight
writes
Sorry guys

But I think you are all looking in the wrong direction
re diesel winch launches......

I have read the previous 40 something posts on this
subject but no one has mentioned the LPG route, gives
both the acceleration of petrol with the cost savings
of diesel.


www.skylaunch.co.uk is a web site of a manufacturer
of a petrol/LPG driven winch of which I can give a
personal recomendation of being the best winch I have
operated over the last 25 years, as I have flown mainly
from winch sites then I consider myself an expert (
ex as in has been and spert as something under pressure)
I also am expecting at least a bottle of single malt
from my 'friends' at skylaunch ;-))

Ged

The petrol(gasoline)/propane winches at the Midland Club, Long Mynd were
bought new already converted for use with propane. They are large block
General Motors engines intended for marine use, where I understand propane
engines are common. I am practically certain that Skylaunch use the same
engines.

The advantage of petrol(gasoline)/propane engines does not lie only with
fuel cost. The engine itself is cheaper, and it is lighter in weight and
more compact. This means that the whole winch is smaller, lighter and more
compact. The Skylaunch can be towed legally on the road by any decent
4 X4, whereas the Supacat and all the other diesel winches I have seen can
only be moved on the back of a truck, or have to be built onto a truck
chassis. Changing the engine or working on it is also much easier.

Lastly it is much easier to arrange good throttle control and response with
a petrol/propane engine. One important special feature of the Skylaunch is
the throttle arrangement to help the driver get the correct setting for
different gliders and different conditions, the universal experience is that
this works really well.

If there is no cost advantage with propane, all the other reasons for
choosing petrol(gasoline) still apply. I know nothing about altitude
compensation, the Long Mynd is the highest club in the U.K. at
1,400 ft. a.s.l.

The normal size wire used in the U.K. seems to be 4.5 mm, some clubs use
5 mm.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
...

Robin, Ged, for the UK, LPG is the right choice.

In the USA LPG or propane is still used mainly for domestic heating and
cooking and is sold for that purpose. To convert a spark ignition engine
to LPG is an extra $3000 or so and then fuel availability becomes an
issue. It can be done and it would work as well here as in the UK but
there's no cost reason to do it since LPG costs about the same or greater
than petrol.

Diesels are reasonably cheap here and the fuel is readily available as
untaxed "red diesel" for as little as $1 per gallon. Biodiesel is a bit
more. In the USA fuel cost for a glider winch is a non-issue
contributing as little as $0.10 per launch. The "big" consumable item in
the launch cost is cable replacement at about $1 per launch. I like
turbo diesels mainly for their flat torque curve and the altitude
compensation.

Not related to winches, but I once watched a demonstration of running a
standby diesel generator on natural gas. Basically, they just piped the
natural gas into the engine's air inlet. When they opened the natural
gas valve, the engine governor cut back on the diesel fuel to compensate
for the extra BTU's from the natural gas. The small amount of diesel
fuel still consumed was just for ignition.

Bill Daniels


"Robin Birch" wrote in message
...

I second this. My club (Cotswold) has used reverse auto tow, then
Skylaunch. I have flown recently using Supercat. The Skylaunch wins
hand down in both height and reliability/consistency. I also have a
fair amount of experience driving the Skylaunch and know that it is very
flexible and allows good control of light gliders (Ka8), gliders with a
narrow speed range (SHK) and heavy beasts ASH and so on.

LPG also works well in terms of cost and refuelling.

Regards

Robin


In message , Ged McKnight
writes

Sorry guys

But I think you are all looking in the wrong direction
re diesel winch launches......

I have read the previous 40 something posts on this
subject but no one has mentioned the LPG route, gives
both the acceleration of petrol with the cost savings
of diesel.


www.skylaunch.co.uk is a web site of a manufacturer
of a petrol/LPG driven winch of which I can give a
personal recommendation of being the best winch I have
operated over the last 25 years, as I have flown mainly
from winch sites then I consider myself an expert (
ex as in has been and spert as something under pressure)
I also am expecting at least a bottle of single malt
from my 'friends' at skylaunch ;-))

Ged

"Bob Korves" wrote in message ...
"Craig Freeman" wrote in message
om...

True today's electronic can be programed to various power outputs.
However it is not possible to do this in a way that would be useful
in the winch application. At least not through the engines computer.
To reprogram the engine you first have to be trained and then have
access to the OEM codes. Only dealers and certified shops get these
codes and then it varies engine by engine as to specific results.
Also to time consuming and not able to make small enough adjustments
to be useful in winch launching. However an external system such
as Bill has proposed could tell the engine "give me more or give me
less". Until a system such as this is built and proven there is
no substitute for the human bean, er brain.

Craig-

I am a parts person at an International Trucks (Navistar) dealer. We are
full service dealers for International, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, and
Caterpillar engines. It is certainly possible to reprogram the ECU's of
these diesels. We do it every day. Simple and easy enough for high school
drop outs to do. I sell the software for reprogramming the engines. Shrink
wrap stuff, just like at the computer store. That said, it would probably
be possible to just replace the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor, "electronic
foot pedal") with a microprocessor circuit and get the thing to do what you
need. I am not a computer nerd, so I don't know the details...
-Bob Korves


I still hear too many stories from truck owners, (my company services
around 2000 trucks a month) that say after reprograming their rig at
the dealer something was not right and it had to be done again. Believe
me I understand that some of them don't even know what is under the
hood of their K Whopper or Petercar but some do know a great deal.
The excess of 100 years of experience which my store managers have,
all certified deisel mechanics and former shop foreman's and service
writers with one the big three engine manufacturers, say yes we can
reprogram but results vary engine to engine and the only way to
know exactly what you have is to put it on the dyno. It will
probably be close but maybe not close enough for this application.
Maybe the tractor pull guys have it all figured out.
I wish to redirect your attention to the original proposition.
"to come up with a design for a safe, reliable, and cost effective
winch, which could be built by a group of amateurs in the USA
using commercially available parts without a whole lot of
modifications". I think that is a worthwhile goal and in the near
future some US clubs might begin to take advantage of such a design.
By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
build a winch if such a design were presented? If not, we should
probably just go flying. Come on down Bill, I'll bet you dinner
I can snap your head back in that big ole heavy glider you are
flying too. Be sure and bring a heavy link with you.

Craig-

"Bob Korves" wrote in message ...
"Craig Freeman" wrote in message
om...

True today's electronic can be programed to various power outputs.
However it is not possible to do this in a way that would be useful
in the winch application. At least not through the engines computer.
To reprogram the engine you first have to be trained and then have
access to the OEM codes. Only dealers and certified shops get these
codes and then it varies engine by engine as to specific results.
Also to time consuming and not able to make small enough adjustments
to be useful in winch launching. However an external system such
as Bill has proposed could tell the engine "give me more or give me
less". Until a system such as this is built and proven there is
no substitute for the human bean, er brain.

Craig-

I am a parts person at an International Trucks (Navistar) dealer. We are
full service dealers for International, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, and
Caterpillar engines. It is certainly possible to reprogram the ECU's of
these diesels. We do it every day. Simple and easy enough for high school
drop outs to do. I sell the software for reprogramming the engines. Shrink
wrap stuff, just like at the computer store. That said, it would probably
be possible to just replace the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor, "electronic
foot pedal") with a microprocessor circuit and get the thing to do what you
need. I am not a computer nerd, so I don't know the details...
-Bob Korves


I still hear too many stories from truck owners, (my company services
around 2000 trucks a month) that say after reprograming their rig at
the dealer something was not right and it had to be done again. Believe
me I understand that some of them don't even know what is under the
hood of their K Whopper or Petercar but some do know a great deal.
The excess of 100 years of experience which my store managers have,
all certified deisel mechanics and former shop foreman's and service
writers with one the big three engine manufacturers, say yes we can
reprogram but results vary engine to engine and the only way to
know exactly what you have is to put it on the dyno. It will
probably be close but maybe not close enough for this application.
Maybe the tractor pull guys have it all figured out.
I wish to redirect your attention to the original proposition.
"to come up with a design for a safe, reliable, and cost effective
winch, which could be built by a group of amateurs in the USA
using commercially available parts without a whole lot of
modifications". I think that is a worthwhile goal and in the near
future some US clubs might begin to take advantage of such a design.
By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
build a winch if such a design were presented? If not, we should
probably just go flying. Come on down Bill, I'll bet you dinner
I can snap your head back in that big ole heavy glider you are
flying too. Be sure and bring a heavy link with you.

Craig-

Craig Freeman wrote:
By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
build a winch if such a design were presented?

I'd build one, but with the constraint that it can be built on a trailer
that can be pulled by a mid-size pickup or SUV (under 4000 lbs. total).
Anything larger, or built on a truck is, in my opinion, not practical
for anything other than primarily fixed site usage.

Marc