Avgas in France has reached $7.50/gal !

Jay Honeck wrote:

And they make a terrific product.

They make at least four terrific products.

But it's not by accident that they have focused their attention on North
America, where semi-healthy general aviation still exists.

I wasn't aware that they have "focused" on North America. They just try
to sell their product worldwide, which of course includes North America.

Stefan

("Martin Hotze" wrote)
snip
why do so many people here play soccer? because it is almost always on TV
and
almost everybody plays it (except me, I guess *g*). why do so few people
in the
US play soccer? why don't I understand the rules of baseball? probably
because
you have to be born into that. why do I find cricket boooooring?


Marty Marty Marty

The question that I can't answer is why DON'T more young people play soccer
in the USA after leaving Jr High, High School or College.

You'll see pickup games of basketball and softball (baseball with a bigger
ball, slow pitching and beer drinking) and even mud football, but I have yet
to see a group of neighborhood kids, big or little, out playing soccer up in
the park. I've seen more little kids hitting golf balls than I've seen kids
playing un-organized soccer.

I've seen kids playing hockey, rollerblade-hockey, Frisbee golf, tennis,
volleyball, swimming, biking and still no sight of any pickup games of
soccer.

This seems odd to me since (for over 20 years now) soccer has been pounded
down the throats of little boys and girls throughout this country. It's
their very first team sport for most of them - uniforms, playing card
photos, button photos, team photos, fridge magnet photos, not to mention the
hours and hours of VHS tape Mom and Dad have of their youth soccer games.

All USA children MUST play organized community youth soccer. ..."soccer
moms" term didn't come from nowhere. And yet, it doesn't seem like it's
taking root here, even with 20 years of solid, solid effort.

I'm 100% serious, I wonder why this is? Almost no kids over 14 play soccor
here, unless they're on an organized team.


Montblack
I played High Shcool soccer my sophomore year, in the fall of 1975. I was
the Goalie. Soccer was pretty new to Minnesota High School sports back then.
Played football my next two years. g

Jay Honeck wrote:

You would think after the train bombings in Spain, there would be as much --
or more -- security efforts expended on them?

Most Europeans just reasonably understand that the probability to be hit
by a meteor is higher. It was a cruel crime, but no paranoya on this
side of the pond. How many people die each day on the road?

Stefan

"Newps" wrote in message
...


Martin Hotze wrote:
"Jay Honeck" wrote:


It's the relative PROPORTION of pilots, aircraft, and airports that is
out
of whack in France. If aviation weren't dead in France, they should
have
the same PROPORTION of pilots, aircraft and airports as the US.



they apparently have other priorities. They have faster trains, for
example. How
does this compare with the US?

We have some fast trains too but we can't get them to stop so they have
been mothballed for a while.

The Boston to Washington high speed train is not running due to not being
able to get brake parts. Anybody know where that train is made?

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:4UO9e.5395$r53.732@attbi_s21...
Have you found one statistic that *PROVES* your point? (that aviation in
France
has been decimated by the French govt. aviation tax strategy?)

Okay, let's re-phrase the question, since the statistics I posted
obviously didn't register with you.

Why is aviation in France statistically out of proportion with its
population, as compared with the US, if NOT because of cost?

Because the US is not France. They country is different. Geographically,
demographically, and culturally. Therefore your notion of proportionality is
bunkum. Your math is the equivalent of saying we have three apples plus 4
oranges so we have seven fruit.
Just so happens that six strawberries and 1 pear also make seven fruit. It
means **** all.

Dave Stadt wrote:
"Newps" wrote in message
...

We have some fast trains too but we can't get them to stop so they have
been mothballed for a while.


The Boston to Washington high speed train is not running due to not being
able to get brake parts. Anybody know where that train is made?

According to the news report on the brake rotors they come from the
consortium of Canada's Bombardier and France's Alstom.

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:03:58 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:
snip
Social engineering through taxation -- even well-meaning efforts -- almost
always seems to have unforeseen consequences.
You mean something like prohibition? It created a great market for
the mobs back then.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Gig 601XL Builder" wr.giacona@coxDOTnet wrote in message
news:ycT9e.2919$Xg.1811@okepread02...

"Martin Hotze" wrote in message
...
"Gig 601XL Builder" wr.giacona@coxDOTnet wrote:

Your putting the effect before the cause. Could it be that "it simply
doesn't appear on the radar of too many people" because it costs to damn
much to do it thier?

no.

and nobody I talked to had the slightest idea about the costs. for sure
they
meant that it isn't the cheapest hobby, but compared to skiing (with all
the
associated costs) or golfing or other things it is still within reach (I
made my
private pilot license here when I was an office clerk for the social
security
administration with an average paycheck).

#m
--
http://www.hotze.priv.at/album/aviation/caution.jpg

Well France has a long tradition of aviation even rivaling the US. What
happened that knocked it of the radar if it wasn't cost. I know cost has
hammered it pretty good here in the US.

El Dorado AR a town of 25,000 in a county with about 50,000 has two
airports ELD and F43. When I was growing up there were three FBOs that
rented, chartered and all that fun stuff. When I got my PPL in 79-80 there
were two and the one I used had three aircraft that stayed rented on the
weekend and were pretty well used during the week. I think the other FBO
had two.

Then I went off to school for 4 years. When I returned they were all gone
there have been a couple try to start up since then and they have all
failed miserably. We had no real economic down turn here and we still have
more than our fair share of Doctors, Lawyers and Oil Men.

THe two things that killed it were the cost of AVGAS and Insurance.

I can understand the insurance bit because you have a crap legal system and
until the limit of 18 years was set on product liability the major aircraft
makers had all but given up production. The only significant light aircraft
manufacturers were in Europe, where liability laws are limited.

Aviation in Europe is doing well and it is proved by the fact the first 2 LS
aircraft certified in the US are of European origin where that area has been
vibrant. In some respects the US is catching up with Europe in that respect.

The other development is that of the diesel engine. The lower running costs
promised are driving the developments.

To complete the rebuttal of Jay's asinine remarks, the aviation scene in
Europe is doing rather well. Why? Because there is a lot of innovation going
on to suitable aircraft to operate in our environment and which the US is
taking advantage of.

IFR is not a big issue in Europe for the private pilot. So expensive IFR
systems like WAAS and GPS enabled approaches are irrelevant. Its interesting
that the much hailed Cirrus cannot fly IFR in much of European airspace and
in the UK its just a VFR machine. By Cirrus's own admission its was not
designed they say for Class A airspace. With Class A starting at 1500 ft its
pretty useless. Excellent value for $450,000.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:VAT9e.5840$r53.5583@attbi_s21...
Decimated since when? Post a reference statistic and time as a starting
point.

Well, let's start with the fact that France's efforts at flight pre-date
our own. Is 1903-ish far enough back for you?

What taxes particularly are you referring to?

Avgas taxes. The price of avgas in France (as the subject of this thread
states) has now exceeded $7.50 per gallon, solely as a result of their
very aggressive tax policies.

Where does France get its processed petroleum products and what factors
make the cost of avgas what it is?

I presume that they get their petroleum from the same worldwide supply as
the U.S. -- yet our avgas is "only" $3.30-ish per gallon.

You just pulled thos whole argument out of your ass, dear, and while it
might make an interesting thesis for a classroom debate, you should quit
defending it unless you have a lot of facts to back up your assertions.

As opposed to your well-thought out, carefully crafted counter-arguments?

;-)

The facts are clear. It is your unwillingness to accept them that is
puzzling. Why -- especially in an aviation forum -- are you (and Larry,
Martin, and a couple of other folks) defending a foreign tax system that
more than DOUBLES the price of aviation? This makes no sense to me.

And why are people required to choose aviation as a pursuit based on the
population of their country?

They're not. But based on the population of France, there should be many
times more pilots -- ESPECIALLY given their proud heritage of flight.

I'm still waiting for an answer: If it's NOT the outrageous cost of avgas
that has nearly killed general aviation in France, what is it? Why, in
the land of Bleriot and Saint-Exupery, are there so (relatively) few men
and women feeling the call to the skies, if NOT for price considerations?

The French are more culturally mature and have perhaps outgrown such
childish pursuits.

"Montblack" writes:

I've seen kids playing hockey, rollerblade-hockey, Frisbee golf, tennis,
volleyball, swimming, biking and still no sight of any pickup games of
soccer.

I can't remember the last time I saw kids ( 14 yo) playing pick up anything.
Seriously. I assume they're exhausted from all the organized activities.

Dan.

--
"Ad Astra Per Alia Porci" PGP Key Id:0x507D93DF