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#51
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"James M. Knox" wrote in message ... Pat Barry wrote in : Renting out an aircraft is a commercial operation in itself, It's renting of a piece of property. It is a commercial operation and will require the renter to hold a state sales certificate (although not have to pay state tax in most states). aircraft cannot be used in any operation for compensation or hire beyond the currency of the 100 hours inspection. But it can be flown by the renter, or his pilot (including a flight instructor *the renter provides*, as long as it is in annual and otherwise airworthy. No 100 hour inspection is required. Nope, go read your own FAA opinion again. I can assure you that when a plane is out of a hundred hour inspection that it cannot be rented out. I hate to quote FSDO web sites, because they are frequently in error. But from, for instance, the Albany FSDO website: "Aircraft rental by itself isn't "for hire," and applicants bring the airplane to me for the test. However, the aircraft may have a recurring AD that requires compliance every 100 hours, so although the 100-hour inspection may be unnecessary, AD compliance may be." More officially, here's an FAA Chief Counsel letter interp: May 3, 1984 Mr. Perry Rackers Jefferson City Flying Service Dear Mr. Rackers This is in reply to your request of May 1, 1984, that we render an opinion regarding the applicability of the 100-hour inspections requirement of Section 91.169(b) of the Federal Aviation Regulations to rental aircraft. Section 91.169(b) of the Federal Aviation Regulations provides that, except as noted in Section 91.169(c), a person may not operate an aircraft carrying any person, other than a crewmember, for hire, and may not give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that person provides unless, within the previous 100 hours of time in service, the aircraft has received either an annual or a 100-hour inspection. If a person merely leases or rents an aircraft to another person and does not provide the pilot, that aircraft is not required by Section 91.169(b) of the Federal Aviation Regulations to have a 100-hour inspection. As noted above, the 100-hour inspection is required only when the aircraft is carrying a person for hire, or when a person is providing flight instruction for hire, in their own aircraft. If there are any questions, please advise us. Sincerely, /s/ Joseph T. Brennan Associate Regional Counsel I'm afraid you are mistaken. Wouldn't be the first time... but not in this case. jmk |
#53
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Jim:
Tarver has no clue. You are correct. He just like to dance around the obvious. Bill A&P IA On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 08:28:17 -0600, "James M. Knox" wrote: "Tarver Engineering" wrote in news:5YCdnQMkPtw0dyqiRVn- : But it can be flown by the renter, or his pilot (including a flight instructor *the renter provides*, as long as it is in annual and otherwise airworthy. No 100 hour inspection is required. Nope, go read your own FAA opinion again. Okay... been there, done that. Care to try to be more specific? Note that I specifically referred to a flight instructor PROVIDED BY THE RENTER. Be very careful when you simply see a sentence about use of the aircraft "for hire or compenation, including flight instruction." If you look more carefully you will see that they are talking about the FBO providing both the plane and flight instructor. That indeed DOES require a 100 hour inspection. ----------------------------------------------- James M. Knox TriSoft ph 512-385-0316 1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331 Austin, Tx 78721 ----------------------------------------------- |
#54
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"Pat Barry" wrote in message ... Renting out an aircraft is a commercial operation in itself, Renting out an aircraft (without a pilot) isn't any kind of operation as far as the FAA is concerned. and an aircraft cannot be used in any operation for compensation or hire beyond the currency of the 100 hours inspection. An application can be given to the FAA whereby the FAA can extend this by ten hours - but that is the only break there is. I can assure you that when a plane is out of a hundred hour inspection that it cannot be rented out. And I can assure you, you are completely wrong. The rule says "carrying passengers for hire." Rental is not carrying passengers for hire. The FAA has issued an official ruling on this. I will repost it here as people insist on repeating this bogosity: May 3, 1984 In Reply Refer To: ACE-7 Mr. Perry Rackers Jefferson City Flying Service PO Box 330 Jefferson City, Missouri 65101 Dear Mr. Rackers This is in reply to your request of May 1, 1984, that we render an opinion regarding the applicability of the 100-hour inspections requirement of Section 91.169(b) of the Federal Aviation Regulations to rental aircraft. Section 91.169(b) of the Federal Aviation Regulations provides that, except as noted in Section 91.169(c), a person may not operate an aircraft carrying any person, other than a crewmember, for hire, and may not give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that person provides unless, within the previous 100 hours of time in service, the aircraft has received either an annual or a 100-hour inspection. If a person merely leases or rents an aircraft to another person and does not provide the pilot, that aircraft is not required by Section 91.169(b) of the Federal Aviation Regulations to have a 100-hour inspection. As noted above, the 100-hour inspection is required only when the aircraft is carrying a person for hire, or when a person is providing flight instruction for hire, in their own aircraft. If there are any questions, please advise us. Sincerely, /s/ Joseph T. Brennan Associate Regional Counsel |
#55
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"James M. Knox" wrote in message ... Pat Barry wrote in : Renting out an aircraft is a commercial operation in itself, It's renting of a piece of property. It is a commercial operation and will require the renter to hold a state sales certificate (although not have to pay state tax in most states). It is not an "operation" as far as the FAA is concern. Operating involves providing an aircraft and a pilot. |
#56
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"James M. Knox" wrote in message ... "Tarver Engineering" wrote in news:5YCdnQMkPtw0dyqiRVn- : But it can be flown by the renter, or his pilot (including a flight instructor *the renter provides*, as long as it is in annual and otherwise airworthy. No 100 hour inspection is required. Nope, go read your own FAA opinion again. Okay... been there, done that. Care to try to be more specific? Note that I specifically referred to a flight instructor PROVIDED BY THE RENTER. You've changed what you are talking about. Your original assertion was that any rental was covered by 100 hour. The legal interps posted here cover that. Now if you want to talk about the "flight instructor providing the aircraft" versus "flight instructor provided by the renter" there's another legal interp. We refer to your letter dated January 28, 1975, which requests our interpretation of FAR 91.169(b) as that regulation might apply to your flying club. You state that the Georgia Lockheed Employees Recreation Club, Inc. (GLERC) is a nonprofit organization which owns five Cessna airplanes. These airplanes are operated by members of GLERC Flying Club, Inc. It is not clear whether Georgia Lockheed Employees Recreation Club, Inc. is the same organization as GLERC Flying Club, Inc. If these two corporations are in fact different, I assume that the Recreation Club permits the Flying Club to utilize the airplanes by lease or other similar arrangement. You pose the following question: If a student furnishes an airplane which is not operated for hire to be used for his own flight instruction and he then pays a flight instructor for instruction, must the airplane have received a 100 hour inspection within the previous 100 hours in order to comply with FAR 91.169(b)? For the purposes of our reply, we assume that the "student" referred to above is a member of GLERC Flying Club, Inc. and the airplane furnished is one of the Cessnas operated by the Flying Club. {p19} Section 91.169(b) pertinently provides: ... [1] no person may operate an aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) for hire, and [2] no person may give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that person provides unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service it has received ... 100-hour inspection ... (Numbers and brackets added.) In the first instance, the student is not carrying anyone for hire. Moreover, the flight instructor is a crewmember. Thus, there is no requirement for the airplane to have a 100-hour inspection. In the second instance, the flight instructor is not providing his own airplane, the airplane being furnished by the student. Thus, this part of Section 91.169(b) does not appear to be applicable. In view of the above, it is our opinion that FAR 91.169(b) does not apply to the factual situation presented. Very truly yours, R.R. HAGADONE Attorney Office of the Regional Counsel |
#57
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"James M. Knox" wrote in message ... "Tarver Engineering" wrote in news:5YCdnQMkPtw0dyqiRVn- : But it can be flown by the renter, or his pilot (including a flight instructor *the renter provides*, as long as it is in annual and otherwise airworthy. No 100 hour inspection is required. Nope, go read your own FAA opinion again. Okay... been there, done that. Care to try to be more specific? "No pilot shall operate ..." Note that I specifically referred to a flight instructor PROVIDED BY THE RENTER. Be very careful when you simply see a sentence about use of the aircraft "for hire or compenation, including flight instruction." If you look more carefully you will see that they are talking about the FBO providing both the plane and flight instructor. That indeed DOES require a 100 hour inspection. Nope. |
#58
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"Ron Natalie" wrote in message m... "James M. Knox" wrote in message ... "Tarver Engineering" wrote in news:5YCdnQMkPtw0dyqiRVn- : But it can be flown by the renter, or his pilot (including a flight instructor *the renter provides*, as long as it is in annual and otherwise airworthy. No 100 hour inspection is required. Nope, go read your own FAA opinion again. Okay... been there, done that. Care to try to be more specific? Note that I specifically referred to a flight instructor PROVIDED BY THE RENTER. You've changed what you are talking about. Your original assertion was that any rental was covered by 100 hour. The legal interps posted here cover that. The airplane did not get safer by changing the transaction and Hagadone's interpretation seems to have missed the point of the law. |
#59
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"Ron Natalie" wrote in
m: Renting out an aircraft is a commercial operation in itself, It's renting of a piece of property. It is a commercial operation and will require the renter to hold a state sales certificate (although not have to pay state tax in most states). It is not an "operation" as far as the FAA is concern. Operating involves providing an aircraft and a pilot. We are in complete agreement, as far as I can tell. Renting an aircraft is a commercial operation -- just the same as renting a fishing boat or renting a pair of skis. It's subject to state and federal laws concerning operating a business, including the collecting and payment of applicable taxes, plus required permits. But, as you say, the FAA has no special regulations for this. It's NOT what they are talking about when they refer to a "commercial operation." ----------------------------------------------- James M. Knox TriSoft ph 512-385-0316 1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331 Austin, Tx 78721 ----------------------------------------------- |
#60
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"James M. Knox" wrote in message ... "Ron Natalie" wrote in m: Renting out an aircraft is a commercial operation in itself, It's renting of a piece of property. It is a commercial operation and will require the renter to hold a state sales certificate (although not have to pay state tax in most states). It is not an "operation" as far as the FAA is concern. Operating involves providing an aircraft and a pilot. We are in complete agreement, as far as I can tell. Renting an aircraft is a commercial operation -- just the same as renting a fishing boat or renting a pair of skis. It's subject to state and federal laws concerning operating a business, including the collecting and payment of applicable taxes, plus required permits. But, as you say, the FAA has no special regulations for this. It's NOT what they are talking about when they refer to a "commercial operation." If the inspection is important as health and safety law, all that FAA has done with the opinion Ron posted is allow any club to forever put off the 100 hour inspection; by merely having the members provide their own instructor. If the law is not important as health and safety law, then the opinion acts in restraint of trade, by preventing the school from providing an instructor. |
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