Confusion

On 11/28/07 08:04, Newps wrote:

Jon Woellhaf wrote:

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
...

This has happened to me several times. Now I *NEVER* tell the tower
I'm ready for take off if I'm IFR, I say "Ready for Release". Since
then I've never had a problem.

BTW: Once this could have been really dangerous. I was flying out of
Santa Barbara where they often use a different runway for IFR and VFR.
I told the tower I was ready to take off on runway XXX. Tower
responded with "Cleared for take off". I said "that airliner on final
looks really close". Tower said "Oh, I thought you were VFR I didn't
realize you were at runway XXX". So bottom line, never say "take off"
when you're IFR.


Yikes! I'm in the habit of telling tower when I'm VFR and usually do say
when I'm IFR. This was just the wrong time omit it. I like your suggestion
and will now say, "IFR to [destination], ready for release." I also say what
runway I'm at.



It is precisely for this reason that when I worked at GFK, home of UND
and the 75 airplane departure rush every couple of hours, that we would
not read you your IFR clearance until you were ready to go.

So you expect an aircraft to take off right after you read them their
clearance?

The pilot is going to need some time to digest the clearance. I certainly
wouldn't just take the clearance without regard and depart.

Normally, I would request my clearance after I've completed my run-up,
but I would still need a couple minutes to check the charts and make
sure the clearance is acceptable (unless it was 'as filed', of course).


Very
occasionally someone would really want their clearance right away but
then we made you sit on the ramp and tell us when you were done with
your runup, etc.



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

Mark Hansen wrote:



It is precisely for this reason that when I worked at GFK, home of UND
and the 75 airplane departure rush every couple of hours, that we would
not read you your IFR clearance until you were ready to go.


So you expect an aircraft to take off right after you read them their
clearance?

The pilot is going to need some time to digest the clearance. I certainly
wouldn't just take the clearance without regard and depart.

The aircraft called ground control when he was done with his runup and
said he was ready for the clearance. GC read him the clearance and then
gave the strip to the data man for the release. Every clearance was as
filed. Always. There's nothing to digest if you flight planned properly.

Steven P. McNicoll asked
What was the departure airport?

KFFZ. Falcon Field, Mesa, Arizona.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...

The Oshkosh tower
sup was even lamenting to me that they FAA took away the printer
after the airshow each year.


I don't think that's been the case for quite some time now.

As I recall, there were limits on the number of printers the Flight Data
Processing computer could support. During the EAA convention OSH would have
a printer at the expense of DBQ tower. It was strange because OSH had a
higher annual traffic count than DBQ.

"Newps" wrote in message
. ..

The aircraft called ground control when he was done with his runup and
said he was ready for the clearance. GC read him the clearance and then
gave the strip to the data man for the release.


Hmmm..., previously you said the clearance wouldn't be issued until the
aircraft was ready to go.



Every clearance was as filed. Always. There's nothing to digest if you
flight planned properly.


Nobody ever filed an unacceptable route? That seems VERY unlikely.

On Nov 28, 5:08 am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:
"Dan" wrote in message

...



That's one way to look at it. However fortunately in this case the
weather was clear and there were probably minimal safety issues. If
pilots give ATC some slack when needed, hopefully they'll be nice when
the pilots mess up. He did eventually get the clearance straightened
out. Nobody's perfect, and as long as we all realize and learn from
mistakes, I don't see why there's a need to be anal about it.

It's a two-way street.

Why does ATC need some slack in this case? Ground control knew he was IFR,
that controller issued an IFR clearance and taxi instructions to the OP.
Presumably the ground controller passes a flight strip to the local
controller on all departures that shows the aircraft to be IFR or VFR. This
is about as basic as it gets in ATC, there's no excuse for this error and
certainly no excuse for compounding it by asking the OP to squawk VFR after
departure.

Agreed, ATC completely screwed up. My point was only this - suppose
you bust an altitude because you were distracted, etc. If it didn't
cause a loss of seperation, would you rather the controller said,
"please check your altitude" or "please call this number when you land
to discuss FAA administrative action."

In this scenario, the tables were turned. Let's treat ATC how we
would like to be treated.

Nobody is perfect all of the time. It's just a question of how to
handle things when someone does occasionally screw up.

--Dan

The aircraft called ground control when he was done with his runup and
said he was ready for the clearance. GC read him the clearance and then
gave the strip to the data man for the release. Every clearance was as
filed. Always. There's nothing to digest if you flight planned properly.

If the clearance was not as filed, the pilot may need to revise a
number of avionics settings, e.g. change waypoints if /G. Flying
around Chicago, I seldom get "as filed" even when I try filing the
route they gave me last time.

paul kgyy wrote:

The aircraft called ground control when he was done with his runup and
said he was ready for the clearance. GC read him the clearance and then
gave the strip to the data man for the release. Every clearance was as
filed. Always. There's nothing to digest if you flight planned properly.


If the clearance was not as filed, the pilot may need to revise a
number of avionics settings, e.g. change waypoints if /G. Flying
around Chicago, I seldom get "as filed" even when I try filing the
route they gave me last time.

Sure, but I was in North Dakota. No issues like in a big city. And at
the time nobody flew /G. A few aircraft were /R but all of UND's fleet
was /A.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:



I believe the AIM uses "ready for departure".



Thanks Steve, I feel vindicated. I use "xxx tower, N3351W ready for
departure runway xx". I assume if I've gotten a clearance from ground
or clearance delivery that tower has gotten a strip on me. I can't
recall ever getting an IFR lost by the tower. I've had strips dropped
on occasion crossing sector boundaries, but those are always quickly
resolved. I certainly would yell if tower told me to squawk or remain
VFR after departing on an IFR clearance, as it puts the onus on me to
get back into the system if I want to be in the system.

Newps wrote:

The aircraft called ground control when he was done with his runup and
said he was ready for the clearance. GC read him the clearance and then
gave the strip to the data man for the release. Every clearance was as
filed. Always. There's nothing to digest if you flight planned properly.

You've obviously never flown in the North East then. Unless you've
flown the exact route several times, know the traffic patterns currently
in use around NYC, and have a spate of good luck, you will usually get a
full route clearance. The preferred routes in the ugly green book are
not always the ones used either. Except for the relatively rare cleared
as filed, you'll have something to digest and a new flight plan to put
into the GPS before you are ready to depart. I always call for my
clearance before engine start, and almost always get the clearance then
as well. On routes that I fly frequently, I often do get the route I
filed, but even then they often give it as either a full or partial
route clearance.