Confusion

I was speaking of the takeoff clearance, to wit:


"Whenever you are cleared for takeoff and do not get some kind of
instruction from tower (fly runway heading, turn left xxx., etc), be
suspicious."


On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:24:48 -0600, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .

Part of the takeoff clearance?


Part of the IFR clearance.

Yes I misspoke - Class B and C towers do issue such instructions to
VFR pilots. However, since departure is contacted in such cases, the
error can be quickly remedied. (although I don't recall ever
experienceing tower confusion such as described in B and C airspace)


On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:52:42 -0500, B A R R Y
wrote:

wrote:
I must say that I have never received a VFR clearance which said "turn
left heading xxx" or "fly runway heading" on takeoff.

Very common in busy airspace, as well as at fields with noise abatement
programs.

Northeastern Charlie and Bravo fields will often continue to vector and
assign altitudes until I exit the airspace.

On Nov 29, 4:16 am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in ...

On Nov 28, 4:18 am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

And if the tower respnds by telling you you're released? What do you do?

That's never happened.

It hasn't happened to you yet. What will you do when it does?

That would be somewhat odd for a controller to release you at a
tower'd field but not clear you for take off. The phrase we need to
hear is 'cleared for takeoff'.


ATC seems to be able to secure the release during taxi at most 40% of
the time. Usually when you tell tower you are ready to go they tell
you that they are still waiting for your release from departure.

That's rather inefficient.

Well I'd love it if my release was ready when I got to the runup, but
sadly I've found it to be less than common.

Since that almost killed me once, I'm not going to do it again.

Please explain how reporting "ready for departure" almost killed you.

I thought I already did. I told tower I was "ready for takeoff runway
XXX". Tower said "Cleared for take off", I said "what about that big
airliner on final, tower said, "oh I though you were at the VFR
runway, YYY, hold short XXX". This was at a class C airport.

-Robert

wrote in message
...

I was speaking of the takeoff clearance, to wit:


"Whenever you are cleared for takeoff and do not get some kind of
instruction from tower (fly runway heading, turn left xxx., etc), be
suspicious."


That wasn't the case here. The OP had an instruction like that from the
tower, it was issued by ground control as part of the IFR clearance. No
reason to be suspicious.

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
...

That would be somewhat odd for a controller to release you at a
tower'd field but not clear you for take off. The phrase we need to
hear is 'cleared for takeoff'.


If you want to hear "cleared for takeoff" you should say something that
clearly tells the tower you're ready for takeoff, "ready for takeoff" or
"ready for departure" do that, "ready for release" doesn't do that.



I thought I already did. I told tower I was "ready for takeoff runway
XXX". Tower said "Cleared for take off", I said "what about that big
airliner on final, tower said, "oh I though you were at the VFR
runway, YYY, hold short XXX". This was at a class C airport.


Reporting "ready for departure" instead of "ready for takeoff" had nothing
to do with the controller's mistake about your location.

When I am IFR, and the tower does not issue some heading instruction
on takeoff, I get suspicious, and I double check. More often than
not (not always), I have found the situation to be as described - the
tower didn't get the word. So the risk/reward has been favorable.

Your experience may be different.





On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 04:30:37 -0600, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .

I was speaking of the takeoff clearance, to wit:


"Whenever you are cleared for takeoff and do not get some kind of
instruction from tower (fly runway heading, turn left xxx., etc), be
suspicious."


That wasn't the case here. The OP had an instruction like that from the
tower, it was issued by ground control as part of the IFR clearance. No
reason to be suspicious.

On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 12:04:35 GMT, wrote:

When I am IFR, and the tower does not issue some heading instruction
on takeoff, I get suspicious, and I double check. More often than
not (not always), I have found the situation to be as described - the
tower didn't get the word. So the risk/reward has been favorable.

Your experience may be different.


I would opine that there is something wrong with the procedures at that
facility if the tower controller is "not getting the word" and that it
would be best to try to change something at the facility so that they are
operating in accordance with published procedures.

I'm not being critical of your method of "prompting" the tower -- it's for
your own safety at that point. But perhaps you could consider, when on the
ground, contacting the tower supervisor. Certainly ASRS forms could be
filed -- safety can be compromised when proper procedures are not followed.
And pilots from other parts of the country may not be aware that at your
facility the tower controllers are prone to this kind of lapse and require
special handling.

I operate in the NE, frequently from towered facilities, and I can't recall
a situation where I've received an IFR clearance (from ground control or
clearance delivery) and then have the tower be unaware of that fact.

KASH is a case in point. It is a busy facility; privately staffed; with a
mix of non-commercial operations. About the only time I get a direction to
fly instruction from Tower is if it is different from the one I received
from Ground.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:14:36 -0700, "Jon Woellhaf"
wrote:


About a minute later, when I hadn't yet been told to contact departure, I
asked Tower if they wanted me to contact departure. That's when the
confusion began. The controller said, "I didn't know you wanted to go to
departure, but, yeah, you can contact departure. Good day." "Well, I'm IFR,"
I replied. After a brief pause, Tower said, "Roger. Do me a favor, squawk
1200. I can't give you departure. You didn't tell me you were IFR. I didn't
get you a release."

I said I'd proceed on course VFR and asked if they'd get me a clearance.
They soon got it and handed me off to departure.


In most instances, I would refuse to allow ATC to cancel my IFR clearance,
which is what happened in this instance.

If you were IMC and they started BSing you, just declare an emergency
and advise you are continuing on your clearance unless they have an
amended clearance.

wrote:
When I am IFR, and the tower does not issue some heading instruction
on takeoff,

We don't EVER get them here. The tower does "cleared for takeoff" and
a few seconds later "contact departure". No further instructions required.

On 2007-11-27 10:14:36 -0800, "Jon Woellhaf" said:

I recently filed IFR and received a clearance from Ground. As part of the
clearance, I was told, "... after departure turn left heading 300 ..." I
taxied to the active, did my run-up, called Tower and said I was ready for
departure. I was soon cleared for takeoff.

The tower screwed up, no doubt, but I try to avoid things like that by
saying, instead of "Ready for departure," I say "Ready for IFR release."


--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor