"Duke" Cunningham is doing time.

On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 06:28:29 GMT, "Red Rider"
wrote:

I have know the guy for over 36 years. I won't say we are good friends, but
whenever we saw each other we said hello. His Naval career was just so-so,
not brilliant but not a disaster either. He probably wouldn't have stayed
around the Navy if he hadn't been an ace.

And that was part of the problem, and has always been. He went through all
the training learning to fly, learning his profession as a fighter pilot,
with everybody telling him how good he was. Telling how special he was to
succeed when so many failed to make the grade. Then he reached the panicle
of success and became an ace, which proved it to him. Somewhere along the
line he began to believe his own legend. Then he is elected to congress,
everything just fell into place for him with little failure. (I guess his
only real setback was the failure of his first marriage). How can you blame
him for believing the BS that everybody fed him. It would take a special
person to maintain a balance with a life like this.

I rejoiced in his success, and I am saddened by his failure. He just proved
that like many of us he has feet of clay.

Well said.

That great American philosopher, Louis L'Amour, once observed, "A ship
doesn't sail on yesterday's wind nor a wheel turn on yesterday's
water."

I'm saddened that a public official soiled his honor by selling his
office. We have WAY too much of that (on both sides of the aisle). We
live in a particularly corrosive politcal environment and this just
makes it worse.

As an aside, one of our local judges just pled guilty to three counts
of extorting money from operators of local driving schools (where you
can go and save yourself some points on your license after some kinds
of tickets). He sacrifced a 27 year judicial carreer for $12,500
(more or less). I've worked in his court for the last 12 years. He
was always professional with me and I don't wish him ill. But he'll
do some time for this, and he ought to. The fact that he was a "good
guy" for most of that time doesn't give him a "free pass."

Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

----------
In article , "John Carrier"
wrote:

The power corrupts comments earlier hit it right on. We throw 535 human
beings into the candy store, tell 'em the owner is blind, and watch. His
corruption is on the grandest scale yet discovered, but how many of them
have been influenced by lesser things? The whole K-street Congress axis is
a detriment to our well-being, and we've got the budget to prove it. The
SOB's have discovered they can bribe us with our own money.

I guess you're right. He's really a victim of society. He should not go to
jail. We should just let him go and live on his Navy and congressional
pensions.

After all, it's not like American lives depended on the defense contracts
that he granted through bribery.




D

DDAY wrote:
----------
In article , "John Carrier"
wrote:

The power corrupts comments earlier hit it right on. We throw 535 human
beings into the candy store, tell 'em the owner is blind, and watch. His
corruption is on the grandest scale yet discovered, but how many of them
have been influenced by lesser things? The whole K-street Congress axis is
a detriment to our well-being, and we've got the budget to prove it. The
SOB's have discovered they can bribe us with our own money.

I guess you're right. He's really a victim of society. He should not go to
jail. We should just let him go and live on his Navy and congressional
pensions.

I didn't get that meaning from John's statement (although I see how one
could). I thought the "candy store... and watch" analogy meant that
corruption is just beneath the surface of many, not all, and waiting for
opportunity.

Sorta like saying hurricanes bring out the closet criminals, but not
everyone from New Orleans is a criminal. Oops, I didn't just say that,
no, wait, I did just say that! Joking aside, that is exactly what I
meant to say.

After all, it's not like American lives depended on the defense contracts
that he granted through bribery.

I concur, I think we all do on this.

The defense team said his longevity may not exceed his prison term. How
does the saying go? Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.


Jim

On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 09:33:41 -0600, Jim Carriere
postulated :

The defense team said his longevity may not exceed his prison term. How
does the saying go? Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

Playing golf during the day and watching HBO in the evenings shouldn't
be too stressful. Walk out in 2 or 3 years. Write a book with Martha
Stewart and make a fortune. I see a new TV show.

----------
In article , Ed Rasimus
wrote:

OGLA (Officer Grade Limitation Act) applied to all uniformed services
and that assured Duke (and me) that we could be around until 20 years
if we made O-4. As a combat experienced, Top Gun instructor, even
without the ace status, I've gotta think Duke would have been assured
a full career.

I seem to remember reading that he had some severe discipline problems. His
behavior much later in Congress implies that he's not the most level-headed
guy there is. My suspicion is that this wasn't a new development.


I flew against him 4 times at Top Gun and had 4 kills.

Lots of guys flew against me in operational units as well as when I
was instructing at Fighter Lead-In. Lots of guys had kills against me.
Was that inferiority in my skills set or was I providing a rewarding
learning experience for them? I know, but they can't be sure.

The good instructor is not supposed to focus on winning every fight, but
teaching the students how to win. Sometimes that means losing.




D

I'll be honest with ya ...

I'm a loyal Republican and a staunch conservative, but...

This asshole got everything he deserved. Period.

Regards,

On Fri, 3 Mar 2006 17:37:42 -0700, (ReeferGuy)
wrote:





He was just sentenced to 100 months.

Most for ANY Member of Congress!

EVER.

Took at least $2.4 million worth of bribes.

Yacht, Home, Rolls-Royce, trips, jewelry.

Navy's only Ace from VietNam, with Driscoll as RIO.

64 years old.

Horses dick.

He pleaded for leniency.

What happens to these guys?

I mean, he's not a "bad" guy???




********************ReeferGuy™





***

"JD" wrote in message
news:NksOf.78994$bF.6999@dukeread07...
John (and Red Rider)

I knew Cunningham since the mid 70's. Fact, Cunningham was on the RIF
list until he became an ace. Had he not become an ace that day, he would
have been passed over and released from the Navy.

Ditto, met him at the Miramar O'club before Connie departed on her cruise.
It's true he was not invited to augment to regular navy prior to his
success.

I never saw him once that he was not sitting in a bar (O Club) letting
everyone one within hearing distance know that he was the greatest pilot
the Navy had in his time.

I flew against him 4 times at Top Gun and had 4 kills.

As a student in F-4? F-14? 1 v 1? Multiplane? Or were you instructing
(don't remember you, but I don't remember a lot of guys there). In any
case, so what? Nobody said he was the best, or even really really good
(Personally, I thought his wingman, Brian Grant, was the better stick ...
that's from significant first hand experience).

I have to disagree with in part (John) about him being the most prepared.
I would say he WAS prepared having gone through TopGun but there were more
than several handfuls of Navy drivers who would have come out of the fray
Cunningham was in as Aces. Luck of the draw.

Most of them would not have made it their life's mission to live off that
reputation. Willie (Driscoll) was quoted as saying on more than one
occasion that they were in the right place at the right time. As far Col
Toon, it has been proven that Toon was not involved in Cunningham's shoot
downs.

He was a grad of topgun as it existed in the era, certainly helped. He also
would sit in the cockpit during alert fives running switchology drills,
quizzing Willie on missile envelopes, etc. Most guys slept or read Playboy.
He also saw more Migs in one day than several air wings saw for an entire
war. Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. The Col Toon
thing was almost certainly an invention of Navy PAO. Whoever Duke
encountered for his last fight of the day was better than you average M-17
driver.

Later in his Navy career, Cunningham became an egotistical drunk who would
berate anyone who disagreed with him.

Certainly to a degree. And he also sobered up and got his act together.
Obviously not well enough.

I can not honestly say I would have accomplished what he did that day, but
given the same situation and being well trained for it, I would like to
think I would.

As do we all. And you, like me, will never REALLY know.

Much of the above is my personal assessment but there are also facts
presented.

VR
Jake

"John Carrier" wrote in message
...

"Red Rider" wrote in message
...

I have know the guy for over 36 years. I won't say we are good friends,
but
whenever we saw each other we said hello. His Naval career was just
so-so,
not brilliant but not a disaster either. He probably wouldn't have
stayed
around the Navy if he hadn't been an ace.

And that was part of the problem, and has always been. He went through
all
the training learning to fly, learning his profession as a fighter
pilot,
with everybody telling him how good he was. Telling how special he was
to
succeed when so many failed to make the grade. Then he reached the
panicle
of success and became an ace, which proved it to him. Somewhere along
the
line he began to believe his own legend. Then he is elected to congress,
everything just fell into place for him with little failure. (I guess
his
only real setback was the failure of his first marriage). How can you
blame
him for believing the BS that everybody fed him. It would take a special
person to maintain a balance with a life like this.

I rejoiced in his success, and I am saddened by his failure. He just
proved
that like many of us he has feet of clay.

Good post! Duke was a solid pilot, the most PREPARED pilot in theater,
and he was presented with opportunities which he capitalized on.
Officerlike qualities? Well, he wasn't the dullest tool in the shed.

The power corrupts comments earlier hit it right on. We throw 535 human
beings into the candy store, tell 'em the owner is blind, and watch. His
corruption is on the grandest scale yet discovered, but how many of them
have been influenced by lesser things? The whole K-street Congress axis
is a detriment to our well-being, and we've got the budget to prove it.
The SOB's have discovered they can bribe us with our own money.

R / John

SNIP
I flew against him 4 times at Top Gun and had 4 kills.

Lots of guys flew against me in operational units as well as when I
was instructing at Fighter Lead-In. Lots of guys had kills against me.
Was that inferiority in my skills set or was I providing a rewarding
learning experience for them? I know, but they can't be sure.

Excellent point and very true.

"Kills" in training are meaningless. Killing or being killed in combat
are the true measure. I didn't get any kills in combat against enemy
aircraft, but then I never got killed either.

AMEN! Thanks Ed.

R / John

Ed,

I have always enjoyed your posts and your level headedness.

It is a fact that Cunningham was not on the augmentation list and was on his
way out of the Navy if not for his Ace status. His service jacket left a lot
to be desired.

But all said, and I have said it many times, no matter how good we think we
are, it doesn't mean diddle squat until you have to walk the walk.

My personal feeling toward Cunningham aside, you and others are correct - It
was a sad day when it all came crashing down around him. Didn't help the
Navy either.

As for Fighter Drivers flying the stools at the O'Club, you got that
assessment right! LOL But there was always one guy who took it too far.
Cunningham was one of them.

John, I started in F4's, transitioned to 14s and then went into the Test
Community. Pax, working on the F14 engine program and juggling time with DJ
Venlet (DJ also spent time as my RIO on occasion in VF41 before his claim to
fame) on the T45 before going to Empire. I returned and went to DARPA.

I think we passed each other once or twice. If I recall, you a were a West
Coaster but I think my career was later than yours so I might be wrong
there. Another aspect is I left the fleet and succeeded in staying in the
cockpit in the test community which was pure luck as it is almost impossible
to do in the Navy.

Some of the old posters here were friends of mine such as Mary Shafer and
Tom Clark (VX20) I saw Tom a few years ago and he was still at Pax. I was
off the NG for a few years for professional reasons and just got back on
awhile ago.

Jake


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 4 Mar 2006 20:49:21 -0600, "JD" wrote:

John (and Red Rider)

I come to the discussion fairly late, and point out that I commented
on Duke in my blog last November
(http://thundertales.blogspot.com/200...ng-scales.html)


I knew Cunningham since the mid 70's. Fact, Cunningham was on the RIF
list
until he became an ace. Had he not become an ace that day, he would have
been passed over and released from the Navy.

Things must have been a lot different in the Navy in the Spring of
'72. While pilot training was being severely cut in both USAF and USN,
there wasn't much reducing of the experienced force going on with our
side of the house. That surprises me.

OGLA (Officer Grade Limitation Act) applied to all uniformed services
and that assured Duke (and me) that we could be around until 20 years
if we made O-4. As a combat experienced, Top Gun instructor, even
without the ace status, I've gotta think Duke would have been assured
a full career.

I never saw him once that he was not sitting in a bar (O Club) letting
everyone one within hearing distance know that he was the greatest pilot
the
Navy had in his time.

Somehow, that equated with what was expected of a fighter pilot in
those days. More business got conducted in club bars than in the
office and show me a fighter pilot who doesn't express confidence that
he is the "world's greatest" and I'll show you a potential loser.

I flew against him 4 times at Top Gun and had 4 kills.

Lots of guys flew against me in operational units as well as when I
was instructing at Fighter Lead-In. Lots of guys had kills against me.
Was that inferiority in my skills set or was I providing a rewarding
learning experience for them? I know, but they can't be sure.

"Kills" in training are meaningless. Killing or being killed in combat
are the true measure. I didn't get any kills in combat against enemy
aircraft, but then I never got killed either.

I have to disagree with in part (John) about him being the most prepared.
I
would say he WAS prepared having gone through TopGun but there were more
than several handfuls of Navy drivers who would have come out of the fray
Cunningham was in as Aces. Luck of the draw.

No disagreement there. Being in a target rich environment provides the
opportunity to excel. Actually excelling takes a bit more. Some luck,
some skill, some courage and some stupidity--lather, rinse, repeat.

Most of them would not have made it their life's mission to live off that
reputation. Willie (Driscoll) was quoted as saying on more than one
occasion that they were in the right place at the right time. As far Col
Toon, it has been proven that Toon was not involved in Cunningham's shoot
downs.

Doesn't matter if it was Toon or Nguyen Bagadonutz, it was an
incredible fight and one that a sensible, cautious man could conclude
should never have taken place. Separation from a MiG-17 in an F-4,
particularly one that was clean and light at that point, was always an
option.

Later in his Navy career, Cunningham became an egotistical drunk who would
berate anyone who disagreed with him.

Sounds like pretty typical fighter pilot behavior to me.

I can not honestly say I would have accomplished what he did that day, but
given the same situation and being well trained for it, I would like to
think I would.

I think that with one kill, I'd have headed for the beach. With two
kills I know I'd be on my way to do that victory pass at the boat. No
way I'd have been engaged with the third.

Much of the above is my personal assessment but there are also facts
presented.

Ditto!

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com