Heavy hand again?

On Monday, July 15, 2013 12:20:04 PM UTC-4, rlovinggood wrote:

I once landed at a former county airport that is now used for "first responder" driver training. They set out a course on the runway with traffic cones. The runway does have "X"s painted on it. The day I landed there, no traffic was on the runway and I found a length clear of cones. No problems. I walked to the former FBO, now a classroom. It was full of policemen. Soon, I had about five squad cars surrounding my glider. But they didn't give me the treatment that Vitek received. They were all just wondering what the glider was and why I was there.


I've been personally associated with about a dozen landouts where the cops got involved in one way shape or form. All but one was painless.

I think the secret is to start by realizing these guys and gals are people, like anyone else. If the first thing they get from a pilot is a ration of attitude, that's probably not a good start. Conversely, if they start out hardass, I view it as my job to start by defusing the situation. Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. You guys obviously have a lot of important things to do. How can we make this work? Sure, there's the hard case that's just out to make your life miserable. In that situation, maybe a cool (but not cold) shoulder is the only solution.

Example. Came up about 20 miles short on final glide and landed uneventfully in a cut hay field adjoining a small recreation area over a hedgerow (baseball fields and a playground). After securing the glider, I went looking for the farmhouse and field owner.

When I got back 20 minutes later, there were two cop cars and the associated cops standing there looking around. I walked up and said something to the effect "I'm guessing you're looking for me?" The first cop came out strong. We were looking for a body. How can you not call in a crash? Endangering public. etc. The other cop obviously wanted to be the proverbial "good cop" but wasn't opening his mouth.

My response was to be apologetic without admitting any wrong doing. "I totally understand - didn't realize the protocol here. When this happens in other jurisdictions (sowing some seeds of doubt), they've specifically asked to not be bothered unless there's an injury or damage. I was actually out looking for the farmer to make sure I wasn't in his way. I had no idea anyone was out looking for me. etc. " Just wanted to tone things down a little and see the reaction.

This made it possible for the second cop to step in and, as they say, cooler heads prevailed. Where we ended up was that "the next time I land in Washington township, I'll be sure to call the non-emergency number son they know what's up if calls start coming in about a plane crash."

By the end of it, the good cop was driving me around looking for the farmer and stopping by the quickie-mart grabbing a cold soda.

Not in anyway implying that Vitek had "good cop" options. Just suggesting that immediately going on the offensive and quoting only name/rank/serial number may be the moral high ground, but it may not be the practical solution to de-escalating.

My. 0.02
Erik Mann (P3)

Papa3 wrote, On 7/15/2013 11:14 AM:
When I got back 20 minutes later, there were two cop cars and the
associated cops standing there looking around. I walked up and said
something to the effect "I'm guessing you're looking for me?" The
first cop came out strong. We were looking for a body. How can you
not call in a crash? Endangering public. etc. The other cop
obviously wanted to be the proverbial "good cop" but wasn't opening
his mouth.

When I used to land out, I'd leave a note in the glider in plain sight
that said "Pilot OK, gone to find the farmer and a phone". That was
pre-1994, when it wasn't common to carry a cell phone.

Now, it's sounds like a good idea to call 911 (if you don't know the
non-emergency number) in addition to leaving that note.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 12:18:18 AM UTC-4, Frank Whiteley wrote:
http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2...dger-mountain/

As an attorney I have very technical legal advice for a situation like this: just be cool. You're not doing anything illegal, so don't act like you might be. A lot of states have a requirement that you produce ID on demand - so go ahead and show them your ID. Most cops are going to have very little to zero experience with aviation matters, and, ironically, they are probably mostly worried about getting into trouble themselves by not handling the situation correctly. They might want to keep you at the scene until they can get a supervisor on the phone. Be cool, hang out, make friends.

Of course, you might get a cop who is freaked out for some reason. You are not going to win an argument or a fight with a cop. Please don't try. If you find yourself getting arrested, again, try to be cool about it. They will be really sorry later when they find out you didn't do anything wrong and you are suing the department.

On Monday, July 15, 2013 2:14:10 PM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:

I think the secret is to start by realizing these guys and gals are people, like anyone else. If the first thing they get from a pilot is a ration of attitude, that's probably not a good start.

I really wish that I could count on "Andy of Mayberry" showing up when I land out. But with my luck it will probably be "Barney Fife" (with one bullet in his revolver), and I need to be on my guard by keeping things professional, formal, and within the law. A good cop will have absolutely no problem with that.

If a bad cop shows up, acting professional, formal, relaxed and within the law might give him an excuse to do something unpleasant, like arrest me, but as long as I keep my hands in full view and act compliant and respectful, the downside of that is fairly limited.

Could I "talk pretty" and convince a bad cop to treat me nice? Maybe. Maybe not. If a cop starts out by thinking that I've done something wrong, or if he is uneasy or disoriented in an unusual situation, my "fast and pretty talk" may rub him the wrong way. Criminals often try to "sweet talk" the cops... at least they do on TV, and it hardly ever works. The fact that you're innocent is irrelevant. All that matters is the cop's frame of reference and his mood.

I agree that "pretty talk" will probably work on a good cop, but keeping things formal and professional will also work with a properly trained cop. I don't buy that providing only the documents and legally required information will turn a good cop into a bad cop. I don't buy that, after providing the legally required ID and papers, saying "I want to talk to my attorney before I answer that question" is being a hard-ass or uncooperative. Will a cop see it that way? Maybe, but they are big boys. They will weigh whether it is more trouble to take me downtown or let me go.

It's nice to hear your tales of land outs from a kinder and gentler time and I hope that that approach will continue to work for you. If I were a "soccer mom" I might try it. Would I ever try to "talk pretty" to a cop in a routine non-land-out situation, like say a traffic stop? No. I don't see why I should interact with the police any differently in a land-out. The land-out for the officer is a non-routine situation and where his behavior is therefore less unpredictable. I will pass up this opportunity to introduce someone to the wonderful sport of soaring.

In article ,
son_of_flubber wrote:

On Monday, July 15, 2013 2:14:10 PM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:

I think the secret is to start by realizing these guys and gals are people,
like anyone else. If the first thing they get from a pilot is a ration of
attitude, that's probably not a good start.

I really wish that I could count on "Andy of Mayberry" showing up when I land
out. But with my luck it will probably be "Barney Fife" (with one bullet in
his revolver), and I need to be on my guard by keeping things professional,
formal, and within the law. A good cop will have absolutely no problem with
that.


I have had a good number of landouts, maybe 25 or so. Only had cops show
up maybe once or twice, ask if I needed help, then left. I have been
pulled over twice by bored cops curious about the "weird trailer". All
good fun.

Unfortunately, I think times are changing and law enforcement agencies
are increasingly taking on more of an authoritarian attitude to go along
with the military equipment they are sporting. Sometime around, oh
September 11, 2001, Barney saw his chance and locked Andy in the cell
with Otis. Now Barney's on the phone ordering bullets by the millions...

On Saturday, July 13, 2013 11:18:18 PM UTC-5, Frank Whiteley wrote:
http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2...dger-mountain/

Let's all keep in mind that when we land out on private property we are TRESPASSING! Now, the law permits a trespass in certain circumstances, thereby excusing what might otherwise be a criminal offense and minimizing the damages that might have to be paid the landowner for the civil aspect of the offense. But, at a minimum, the trespasser is still liable for any damages he/she causes (e.g., damage to growing and valuable crops.)

My counsel would be that all glider pilots remain humble and cooperate fully with law enforcement when they come to investigate. You may have a right to be silent in your own home or on the public streets, but if you get caught on someone else's property you better be able to explain what you are doing there or the cops are within their rights to run you in.

I also agree with some of the other posts that it is an EXCELLENT IDEA TO CALL 911 or the local Sheriff's office just to let them know you are alright and that they do not need to send an ambulance. Put yourself in their shoes -- what are they suppose to do if they get a frantic phone call from a citizen saying that they just witnesses an airplane crash? I suspect they would much prefer to not have to scramble the crash trucks and come screaming out to a farmer's field if they don't really have to.

Phil Umphres,N24HC

On Monday, July 15, 2013 5:39:17 PM UTC-4, WB wrote:
Barney saw his chance and locked Andy in the cell
with Otis. Now Barney's on the phone ordering bullets by the millions...

Ha! Good old Barney.

Speaking of phones, I really like the idea suggested earlier in this thread of calling 911 when you land out, telling them that you are uninjured, that there is no fire and that you don't need assistance. Proactive communication made possible by the cell phone diverts the security apparatus. I will add this to my play book.

A friend of mine landed out within visual range of an airport control tower (no radar), he did not call in and the control tower dispatched the police and fire department to his location. A simple phone call would have saved a lot of aggravation.

On Monday, July 15, 2013 6:42:36 PM UTC-4, wrote:
You may have a right to be silent in your own home or on the public streets, but if you get caught on someone else's property you better be able to explain what you are doing there or the cops are within their rights to run you in.

I see no reason to say anything other than "I don't have an engine, I had no choice but to land here." Hand them ID, registration and insurance contact info. If the officer feels that you have broken a law, it is even more imperative to say nothing (and you most certainly do have the right to remain silent.) Your goal is to avoid wrongful conviction. Wrongful arrest is not the end of the world.

Watch a few minutes of the video that I posted above https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc and see how statements by innocent people get them wrongfully convicted. Do you think that you are smart/lucky enough to avoid saying something that could be misconstrued? Do you think you are smart enough to know when you can speak freely to an officer and when you cannot? It is a much safer bet in any encounter with law enforcement to say nothing and wait until you have professional legal counsel.

On Monday, July 15, 2013 5:23:12 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Monday, July 15, 2013 2:14:10 PM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:



I think the secret is to start by realizing these guys and gals are people, like anyone else. If the first thing they get from a pilot is a ration of attitude, that's probably not a good start.



I really wish that I could count on "Andy of Mayberry" showing up when I land out. But with my luck it will probably be "Barney Fife" (with one bullet in his revolver), and I need to be on my guard by keeping things professional, formal, and within the law. A good cop will have absolutely no problem with that.


Don't know exactly where you got "talk pretty" or anything remotely like it in all of the above. The majority of cops are just moms/dads, sister/brothers like anyone else out to do a job, get paid, and not get killed in the process. The simpler times I talk of are mostly all post 9/11 - hell, I'm only 40 something years old!

I talk to them like an adult who has done nothing wrong and wants to make sure we all collectively get through the rest of our day with a minimum of hassle. If I can be friendly or drop in a funny line in the process, great. Copping any sort of attitude or "I'm not a lawyer but I watch Law and Order religiously" sort of stance isn't gonna make things work out in your favor.

Most cops vaguely remember something in their training about aviation "crashes" being a Federal issue and something they're not supposed to get involved with other than "securing the scene". Expecting the average cop (or citizen) to understand that it's "no big deal" that an aircraft just landed in a local field isn't fair.

So to summarize, I'm not suggesting running off at the mouth with a "profusion of apologies". At the same time, "lawyering up" and providing only name/rank/serial number is probably a guarantee to a long afternoon. Deal fairly and frankly and assertively explain your rights if they come into question, and you'll probably walk away happy way more often than not.

P3

Yo Flub,

How many of these landouts have YOU actually done?



On Monday, July 15, 2013 7:06:47 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Monday, July 15, 2013 6:42:36 PM UTC-4, wrote:

You may have a right to be silent in your own home or on the public streets, but if you get caught on someone else's property you better be able to explain what you are doing there or the cops are within their rights to run you in.



I see no reason to say anything other than "I don't have an engine, I had no choice but to land here." Hand them ID, registration and insurance contact info. If the officer feels that you have broken a law, it is even more imperative to say nothing (and you most certainly do have the right to remain silent.) Your goal is to avoid wrongful conviction. Wrongful arrest is not the end of the world.



Watch a few minutes of the video that I posted above https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc and see how statements by innocent people get them wrongfully convicted. Do you think that you are smart/lucky enough to avoid saying something that could be misconstrued? Do you think you are smart enough to know when you can speak freely to an officer and when you cannot? It is a much safer bet in any encounter with law enforcement to say nothing and wait until you have professional legal counsel.