sport airplane from private glider

In a recent thread it was asserted that it was possible to get sport
pilot airplane privileges without taking a knowledge test and flight
test if the pilot held a private glider rating. For some reason I
cannot see that thread. I had doubts that this was true and followed
up with AOPA.

The text of my question and the AOPA answer are shown below.


my question:

I seek clarification on sport pilot rules.

The sport pilot PTS provides this statement:

Sport Pilot--Additional Privileges
If you hold a Sport Pilot Certificate or higher and seek to operate
an
additional category or class of light-sport aircraft (14 CFR part 61,
section 61.321), you must:
1. receive a logbook endorsement .......
2. successfully complete a proficiency check from an authorized
instructor ......
3. complete an application for those privileges .......
4. receive a logbook endorsement from the instructor .......

In this context, what is meant by a "higher" certificate? I
assume that a
commercial single engine land certificate is "higher" that a private
single
engine land certificate. But , for example, is a commercial glider
certificate
considered to be higher than a private airplane single engine land
certificate.

More to the point, is a private glider certificate higher than a sport
pilot
certificate for the purpose of meeting the PTS requirements to fly
light sport
airplanes? I.e. can a person with a private glider certificate
receive sport
pilot airplane privileges without passing a knowledge test or a flight
exam as
long as steps 1-4 above are completed?

AOPA answer:

Thanks for the email. Your issues is one of SEL power vs. non-powered
glider.

Any current glider certificated and rated glider pilot desiring to fly
any
powered SEL aircraft must complete the powered training as
appropriate.

Sport Pilot privileges and certification requirements is Part
61Subpart J.
Outside of SP is Recreational, Private, Commercial and ATP. All
powered ratings,
Glider is separate.

Upgrading from an Sport Pilot certification to either Glider or
powered Rec or
Pvt SEL requires passing a PTS with an Examiner.


A glider certificated pilot is not higher than SP. Higher
certification means
going from SP to Rec, Pvt., etc. FAR 61.31 and Subpart J
defines the differences. Taking written knowledge test to stay within
powered
aircraft does not required additional written test within SP. But
moving outside
SP to Rec or Pvt does. Reason is each test is written and designed to
cover the
privileges and regulations applicable to that rating certtificate as
the rule
are different.

end AOPA answer.


I won't attempt to provide an interpretation of the AOPA answer.
However, I find the statement "A glider certificated pilot is not
higher than SP" to be significant in understanding the Sport PTS
requirements.


Andy

I am far from an authority on the subject; however, I disagree with the AOPA
and believe the following logic applies.

If you are a Private Pilot (Glider) then you have a higher rating then a
Sports Pilot (Glider); therefore, the Sport Pilot (Airplane) can be added on
with an instructor's endorsement.

The main Sports Pilot/Sports Aircraft guru is the EAA. They are the ones
who fought the battle in Washington to form the new category.

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/


"Andy" wrote in message
...
In a recent thread it was asserted that it was possible to get sport
pilot airplane privileges without taking a knowledge test and flight
test if the pilot held a private glider rating. For some reason I
cannot see that thread. I had doubts that this was true and followed
up with AOPA.

The text of my question and the AOPA answer are shown below.


my question:

I seek clarification on sport pilot rules.

The sport pilot PTS provides this statement:

Sport Pilot--Additional Privileges
If you hold a Sport Pilot Certificate or higher and seek to operate
an
additional category or class of light-sport aircraft (14 CFR part 61,
section 61.321), you must:
1. receive a logbook endorsement .......
2. successfully complete a proficiency check from an authorized
instructor ......
3. complete an application for those privileges .......
4. receive a logbook endorsement from the instructor .......

In this context, what is meant by a "higher" certificate? I
assume that a
commercial single engine land certificate is "higher" that a private
single
engine land certificate. But , for example, is a commercial glider
certificate
considered to be higher than a private airplane single engine land
certificate.

More to the point, is a private glider certificate higher than a sport
pilot
certificate for the purpose of meeting the PTS requirements to fly
light sport
airplanes? I.e. can a person with a private glider certificate
receive sport
pilot airplane privileges without passing a knowledge test or a flight
exam as
long as steps 1-4 above are completed?

AOPA answer:

Thanks for the email. Your issues is one of SEL power vs. non-powered
glider.

Any current glider certificated and rated glider pilot desiring to fly
any
powered SEL aircraft must complete the powered training as
appropriate.

Sport Pilot privileges and certification requirements is Part
61Subpart J.
Outside of SP is Recreational, Private, Commercial and ATP. All
powered ratings,
Glider is separate.

Upgrading from an Sport Pilot certification to either Glider or
powered Rec or
Pvt SEL requires passing a PTS with an Examiner.


A glider certificated pilot is not higher than SP. Higher
certification means
going from SP to Rec, Pvt., etc. FAR 61.31 and Subpart J
defines the differences. Taking written knowledge test to stay within
powered
aircraft does not required additional written test within SP. But
moving outside
SP to Rec or Pvt does. Reason is each test is written and designed to
cover the
privileges and regulations applicable to that rating certtificate as
the rule
are different.

end AOPA answer.


I won't attempt to provide an interpretation of the AOPA answer.
However, I find the statement "A glider certificated pilot is not
higher than SP" to be significant in understanding the Sport PTS
requirements.


Andy

I think whoever answered at AOPA either doesn't understand the Sport
Pilot rules or that your "glider" is actually a registered aircraft
and you have an FAA license.

A person may be a Sport Pilot in airplane, powered parachute, weight
shift, gyrocopter, glider or lighter than air. If a person has any
previous license they can use that as a basis for adding a category
under Sport Pilot. That's because you need at least a Sport License,
which is the lowest grade. A Recreational, Private, Commercial license
in anything is therefore a higher license.

If you want to add a new category of aircraft to your license (like
airplane), all you have to do is train with an instructor until he
feels you are proficient (FAR 61.321). There are no minimum times or
requirements. He can then endorse your logbook for a proficiency check
with another instructor (no examiner) and complete an 8710
application. When you pass the proficiency check, the check instructor
will complete the application and endorse your logbook for the new
privileges. The endorsement is the key to it. When exercising the new
category you must carry a record of the endorsement. When the FAA
processes your new license it will have your old privileges
"Commercial Pilot Glider" and also "Sport Pilot Privileges Only." The
reason for not adding the new category is that if you wanted to add
another Sport Pilot Category, the FAA will not need to reissue a new
license again, you would just have another logbook endorsement.

If you do want to add a private pilot license then you will need to
take the written exam and go with an examiner. You can still apply
your previous flying time to the license which can save a lot of money
in the end (I was able to use 150 hours of glider time towards my
commercial airplane).

The best place for information is www.sportpilot.org. The annual Sport
Pilot Expo is also being held in Sebring, FL from January 17-20 if
you're really interested in the idea of adding on a rating or buying
an airplane. See www.sport-aviation-expo.com.


Mike

I have to agree the AOPA answer doesn't make sense.

They said...

"Outside of SP is Recreational, Private, Commercial and ATP. All
powered ratings, Glider is separate. "

While there is not a Recreational and I believe no ATP Glider
certificate. There certainly are SP Private and Commercial Glider
certificates. Maybe what they meant was that certificates are separate
from aircraft Categories. Even then it is confusing to me what they
meant.

They also Said...

"A glider certificated pilot is not higher than SP. "

This is clearing wrong because a Private Glider rating is clearly
higher than a SP Glider Rating. True they did not say what kind of
glider certificated pilot.

"Higher certification means going from SP to Rec, Pvt., etc. FAR 61.31 and Subpart J
defines the differences."

This is correct, Here they say the a Private certificate is a higher
Rating than a SP certifcate.

"Taking written knowledge test to stay within powered aircraft does not required additional written test within SP. But moving outside SP to Rec or Pvt does."

This is correct but doesn't apply to the question you asked. Yes you
need a knowledge test any time you upgrade to a higher rating. (That
is what AOPA said ) According to my Test Proctor there is never a
knowledge test for a lateral or down ward move (FI is the exception).
If you have private airplane rating there is no knowledge test to move
to a Glider or Helicopter (FAR 61.63b). There is also no written if
you move downward to SP or Recreational Certificate. Knowledge tests
are only required for an upgrade in rating, not the addition of a
category.

*******************
The simple answer is that; I think it is obvious that SP Glider pilot
does not need a written or Practical exam to add SP Airplane.

A Private Glider Pilot can not add SP Glider Privledges to his
certificate because he already has these privileges as a Private
Glider Pilot. (A higher rating)

It doesn't make sense that a SP Glider pilot can transition to a SP
Airplane without the written or practical test and not allow it for a
Private Glider Pilots.

CFIIG/ASEL
Brian

On Nov 27, 11:33 am, Brian wrote:
I have to agree the AOPA answer doesn't make sense.
It doesn't make sense that a SP Glider pilot can transition to a SP
Airplane without the written or practical test and not allow it for a
Private Glider Pilots.

CFIIG/ASEL
Brian

I have to agree that the AOPA answer is confusing and I'm not ready to
take a position of this yet.

I am certainly confused and surprised that an SP glider pilot can get
SP airplane without a knowledge or flight test since, as a pvt glider
pilot, I had to take both the knowledge and flight test to get private
ASEL on my certificate. Similary as a commercial glider pilot I had to
take the knowledge test and flight tests to get my commercial ASEL
rating. When I had a glider instructor rating I had to take a flight
test to add airplane instructor.

Andy

It is a departure from past certification of pilots but there are two
reasons I believe the FAA has allowed this.

#1) Upgrading "Heavy" ultralights. All the ultralight guys were flying
two seaters and calling themselves instructors to get through a
loophole in Part 103. The FAA doesn't want to allow this anymore and
so they have to obtain a SP license and N-number their ultralights
unless it fits into the true Part 103.

#2) Provide access to flying for a new group of people. This was done
by creating the Sport License, which allows you to jump around and try
different aircraft without dropping as much money along the way
(including $300+ for examiner). Aircraft also fall under this, making
it easier to have a Special Light Sport Aircraft licensed, versus a
Standard Certification. You can see this by the 60+ SLSAs flying in
the last three years compared to probably a tenth of that in GA.

The standards for someone to obtain a new SP rating are extremely low
also. For a SP glider it's 10 hours and 20 hours for airplane. I hope
no one does an initial rating in that amount of time, but basically
the FAA wants to make it as simple as possible and get more interest
going in flying. That's good for us!