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Completing the Non-precision approach as a Visual Approach



 
 
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  #31  
Old November 18th 03, 10:47 PM
Frank Ch. Eigler
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"John Clonts" writes:

[...] 1) Does "having the runway environment in sight...make a
normal landing" in 91.175 mean its ok to descend below MDA, fly a
couple more miles to the airport and then fly the pattern (circle to
land), as long as the runway is still in sight. [...]


One thing that troubles me about this is your reference to
circling-to-land. Up here in Canada, the IFR rules say that a descent
from the MDA for circling can only be done at the "final descent for
landing" - basically for the final approach. (I believe there is a
similar restriction for straight-in landings too.)

Look at it another way. If there was no prohibition against
descending below the MDA in this circumstance, what would keep a pilot
from going to 100 AGL at the earliest hole through the clouds, and
skirting the ground all the way to the airport? You are obviously
leaving all the IAP obstruction clearance margins, but are not making
that explicit by requesting a contact approach. That doesn't sound
right.

- FChE
  #32  
Old November 18th 03, 11:57 PM
Kobra
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If you have the runway in sight you don't need to cancel or request a
contact approach


Steve,

If this ap is a non-towered ap then he would have been allowed to change
freq to CTAF once cleared for the approach. Once he was assured a landing
or after he was on the ground I think he'd have to tune back to approach
control and cancel IFR with ATC.

Kobra



  #33  
Old November 19th 03, 12:02 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Kobra" wrote in message
...

If this ap is a non-towered ap then he would have been allowed to change
freq to CTAF once cleared for the approach. Once he was assured a landing
or after he was on the ground I think he'd have to tune back to approach
control and cancel IFR with ATC.


Or via phone call to FSS, but what's your point?


  #34  
Old November 19th 03, 03:48 AM
John Clonts
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"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

The gist of my question involves either or both of these aspects:

1) Does "having the runway environment in sight...make a normal

landing"
in 91.175 mean its ok to descend below MDA, fly a couple more miles to

the
airport and then fly the pattern (circle to land), as long as the runway

is
still in sight.


Yes.


Thanks, this is as I hoped. Somewhere along the way I had picked up a
suspicion that I couldn't legally descend from MDA until aligned with the
runway.


2) Once I get to class G airspace on my approach and am clear of

clouds
in
1 mi vis, can I then descend below MDA by doing something like declaring
myself visual, contact, or canceled IFR.


No, you do not get to Class G airspace at any point at or above the MDA.



Ok, if not on this particular example, let's say it was
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...l/BWD_vr17.pdf
where MDA is 434 haa/hat, and class G up to 700? Do any new options open
up to me once I descend out of controlled airspace at 700 agl, clear of
clouds and 1 mi vis? E.g. I could cancel IFR at that point...

Thanks again,
John


  #35  
Old November 19th 03, 04:13 AM
J Haggerty
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On a circling approach, it's always Height Above Airport (HAA)

EDR wrote:
In article . net,
Hilton wrote:


John Clonts wrote:

I'm inbound on the final approach segment of the VOR-A approach at T82
(Fredericksburg Texas):

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../T82_vd_gA.pdf

At about 3 miles east of the airport I'm at the MDA of 2460 MSL ("766


AGL"),

This was (one of) your (almost) fatal mistake. At 2460' and 3 miles out,
you probably were not at 766 AGL. The 766 you see is NOT AGL as you would
first think. The 766' is the altitude above the airport elevation (for a
circling approach). Note that 1694 + 766 = 2460.

It's probable that a lot of instrument pilots do not know this.



Let's pick nits...
Is it
Height Above Aerodrome?
or
Height Above Threshhold?


  #36  
Old November 19th 03, 04:17 AM
Kobra
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Or via phone call to FSS, but what's your point?

Hmmm....I just re-read your post and I thought you were stating that he
would not have to cancel *IFR*. Now that I read closer I see you were
referring to a *contact approach*.

What's my point? I'm a lousy reader.

Kobra


  #37  
Old November 19th 03, 01:57 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Kobra" wrote in message
...

Hmmm....I just re-read your post and I thought you were stating that he
would not have to cancel *IFR*. Now that I read closer I see you were
referring to a *contact approach*.

What's my point? I'm a lousy reader.


I was saying he wouldn't have to cancel IFR or request a contact approach in
order to descend from the MDA if he had the runway in sight. Of course he
would still have to cancel his IFR clearance eventually.


  #38  
Old November 19th 03, 02:05 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

Ok, if not on this particular example, let's say it was
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...l/BWD_vr17.pdf
where MDA is 434 haa/hat, and class G up to 700? Do any new options open
up to me once I descend out of controlled airspace at 700 agl, clear of
clouds and 1 mi vis? E.g. I could cancel IFR at that point...


Yes, on this approach you enter Class G airspace before reaching the MDA.


  #39  
Old November 19th 03, 02:27 PM
Marco Leon
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"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message ...

No, you may descend below the MDA upon sighting the runway environment.


That's what I thought and was instructed to do.



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  #40  
Old November 19th 03, 04:06 PM
Dave Butler
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John Clonts wrote:

snip

Somewhere along the way I had picked up a
suspicion that I couldn't legally descend from MDA until aligned with the
runway.


I've seen this recommended as a conservative rule to keep yourself safe on a
circling approach, but it's not regulatory. On some approaches it will be just
about impossible. You'll find that in order to descend using "normal" maneuvers
you'll need to start your descent before alignment with the runway.

Consider what happens if you are circling with visibility near the minimum for
the approach and don't descend from MDA until you are aligned. Will you be able
to get down?

OTOH, whenever you decide to descend below MDA, you are giving up the obstacle
protection that the approach designers built in, and substituting your own
visual obstacle avoidance. It's a tradeoff.

snip

Dave
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