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#21
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Nothing good about Ethanol
"Newps" wrote: Think about it logically. Besides, in order to be "energy independent" with Ethanol alone, we would haqve to plant corn on every arcre of farmland in this country.... forget growing any actual food. Bah, we've got millions of acres here in Montana, any wheat producing state will, that are not farmed right now because it won't support sweet corn. But it will grow the field corn that you use to produce ethanol quite nicely. And the only reason we're talking about ethanol from corn is the mighty U. S. corn lobby. Other crops--sugar beets up North, sugar cane down South--can give much higher ethanol yields/acre. -- Dan "Gut feeling" Intestinologists concur that the human gut does not contain any rational thoughts. What the human gut *is* full of is moderately well known. |
#22
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Nothing good about Ethanol
In article ,
"Dan Luke" wrote: Those kinds of questions also apply to the exploration for and extraction of oil, the transportation and refining of crude, and the transportaton of gasoline. It takes energy to make energy; this is not news. Also, gasoline has enormous hidden costs related to our (U. S.) international efforts, military and otherwise, to maintain the security of imported oil sources. The same military is used to protect the land and people who would grow corn for ethanol. -- Bob Noel Looking for a sig the lawyers will hate |
#23
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Nothing good about Ethanol
Roger wrote:
: What experts? Employed by whom? What are their qualifications? What : peer-reviewed studies did they publish? : Well, you can do a search and find a good many studies by legit? : universities and corporations. Unfortunately the results for "Net : energy Gain" for alcohol production vary from a negative 50% to an : outlandish positive of several hundred percent (by a university). IOW : if you hunt you will be able to find a study that will support just : about any position. Well-said. As has been said before, there are "lies, damn lies, and statistics." Depending on which studies you want to read making various assumptions on "environmental costs," "incidental costs," and "byproduct credits," the studies tend to ready anwhere from a 20% on the Joule fossil-fuel energy budget to a 1-4x per Joule fossile-fuel budget. In any event, it is certainly not the magic-bullet that many people tout. In Brazil it works well due to the relative ease of conversion sugar cane as compared to corn. Check out the papers by Pimentel for the last 30 years. He may be at one extreme end of the spectrum (20%), but the other extreme end (1-4x) isn't enough to devote huge resources to encourage. -Cory ************************************************** *********************** * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * ************************************************** *********************** |
#24
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Nothing good about Ethanol
"Bob Noel" wrote: "Dan Luke" wrote: Those kinds of questions also apply to the exploration for and extraction of oil, the transportation and refining of crude, and the transportaton of gasoline. It takes energy to make energy; this is not news. Also, gasoline has enormous hidden costs related to our (U. S.) international efforts, military and otherwise, to maintain the security of imported oil sources. The same military is used to protect the land and people who would grow corn for ethanol. ....and everything else *at home*. But how much extra expense do we entail because we must protect our foreign oil supply? I seriously doubt we would be at war with terrorism instigated mostly by Arabs if imported oil were not a vital national interest that has required a military presence in the Middle East for decades. The cost of Homeland Security and the campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan should count in the price of gasoline, IMO. -- Dan C-172RG at BFM |
#25
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Nothing good about Ethanol
Not much thinking required, you *MUST* now test each and every load of
fuel for the presence of ethanol before you put it in your plane. Ethanol free autogas is geting much harder to find. And it is certainly not labeled at the pump anymore like it used to be. It is here in Iowa -- by law. Ironic, no? -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#26
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Nothing good about Ethanol
Dan Luke wrote:
"Bob Noel" wrote: "Dan Luke" wrote: Those kinds of questions also apply to the exploration for and extraction of oil, the transportation and refining of crude, and the transportaton of gasoline. It takes energy to make energy; this is not news. Also, gasoline has enormous hidden costs related to our (U. S.) international efforts, military and otherwise, to maintain the security of imported oil sources. The same military is used to protect the land and people who would grow corn for ethanol. ...and everything else *at home*. But how much extra expense do we entail because we must protect our foreign oil supply? I seriously doubt we would be at war with terrorism instigated mostly by Arabs if imported oil were not a vital national interest that has required a military presence in the Middle East for decades. The cost of Homeland Security and the campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan should count in the price of gasoline, IMO. -- Dan C-172RG at BFM Yeah, that World Trade Center thing is not worth getting excited about... -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#27
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Nothing good about Ethanol
("Dan Luke" wrote)
I seriously doubt we would be at war with terrorism instigated mostly by Arabs if imported oil were not a vital national interest that has required a military presence in the Middle East for decades. The cost of Homeland Security and the campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan should count in the price of gasoline, IMO. East Timor and Rwanda come to mind. Thousands of Mini (micro) Nuclear Power Plants, for a variety of uses (all of the same design) is my answer. (1) Micro-NPP + (1) Ethanol Plant ...corn, sugar beets, hemp, whatever. Cost? - This one's too easy. g [Montblack's reply after linked newspaper story] Minneapolis [Red] Star-Tribune story today (Friday) http://www.startribune.com/462/story/468717.html Public paid for idled wind farms Xcel lacks the capacity to transmit all the wind power, so it pays for some machines to remain idle, and passes the cost to customers. Tom Meersman, Star Tribune Last update: June 01, 2006 – 11:12 PM Xcel Energy electricity customers have paid millions of dollars for wind energy that was never produced, according to documents filed with state regulators. The utility guarantees payments to wind farm owners whenever their machines produce electricity, but it doesn't have enough transmission lines to deliver all of that power to consumers. As a result, wind machines have been routinely disconnected, sometimes on the windiest days, when the most power could be generated. Xcel paid wind developers about $10.4 million -- called "curtailment payments" -- for wind-generated electricity that it could not accept from February 2004 through May 2005, according to a report by the Minnesota Department of Commerce. Those costs were passed directly to Xcel electricity customers through the fuel clause adjustment, which is added to monthly bills. The extra costs for a typical residential customer amounted to 20 cents per month, or $3.20 during that 16-month period, according to the report. Xcel officials said curtailment payments are a legal and effective tool to develop wind power. The payments are unavoidable, they said, because it takes only a few months to build a large wind farm but it requires several years to construct the transmission lines to move the power the farm produces. [Later in the story] The developers have contracts that require Xcel to buy the power when it's available. In early 2004, wind generators were capable of producing 466 megawatts of electricity on the ridge, but Xcel could accept only about 56 percent of it. The wind developers set up a rotation system in which they took turns reducing output or turning off their generators. [Montblack here] For the love of ...#%^&*$%^#^*!! Here it is again: 1. Build a 12-ft diameter (silo??) in the ground. 25-ft? 50-ft? 2. Make it 30-ft deep. 50-ft deep? Whatever. Build it above ground - who cares! 3. Fill (round) weight box with rocks, or sand, or lead, or scrap iron. Or water. 4. When the transmission lines are full, active wind farm starts lifting weights. 5. When one weight is lifted, switch to second silo, then third... 6. Hire smart people to tell you how big to make your various silos, how much weight to lift, DC motors?, earth's rotational affect on the hanging weights, etc. 7. Sell electricity back to Xcel Power (Minnesota) when grid opens up (no wind) or demand (price) is higher. 8. There. We now have a way to store the energy commodity our wind farm(s) have harvested. I'm sticking with the term silo - seems applicable. 9. Not efficient you say? Well, it's a lot more efficient than letting windy days pass without harnessing/harvesting ANYTHING - and yet paying for it, ANYWAY! 10. Questions: See Split Rock Light House system using weights (in a long tube) to rotate the lamp. Weights needed to be cranked up twice daily, IIRC. Maybe four times, daily? Every four hours? ...you get the point. Montblack Have "them" ring my NEW cell phone. We'll set up a time to take a meeting :-) |
#28
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Nothing good about Ethanol
Jim, buddy, you're a nice guy, but for the love of Orville, can you please
snip for those of us on limited bandwidth? Jim wrote in message ... Dan Luke wrote: "Bob Noel" wrote: "Dan Luke" wrote: Those kinds of questions also apply to the exploration for and extraction of \ The cost of Homeland Security and the campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan should count in the price of gasoline, IMO. -- Dan C-172RG at BFM Yeah, that World Trade Center thing is not worth getting excited about... -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#29
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Nothing good about Ethanol
Lots 'o good ideas snipped
Montblack Have "them" ring my NEW cell phone. We'll set up a time to take a meeting No way! You got a cell phone?? After all these years? You were the last hold-out in North America. Assimilation complete. We are Borg... ;-) -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#30
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Nothing good about Ethanol
wrote: I seriously doubt we would be at war with terrorism instigated mostly by Arabs if imported oil were not a vital national interest that has required a military presence in the Middle East for decades. The cost of Homeland Security and the campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan should count in the price of gasoline, IMO. -- Dan C-172RG at BFM Yeah, that World Trade Center thing is not worth getting excited about... Huh?? |
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