Bible-beater pilots

Jay Honeck wrote:

I know this is going down an off-topic sink hole, but I would be
interested to hear another pilot (I assume you are a pilot, if
you're here?) give a cogent, logical, scientifically-proven defense
of your beliefs.

Is that possible?

Yes. It was all contained in the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy."
The answer to the ultimate question was "42". And that just about sums
it all up.

In article , James Robinson
wrote:

Jay Honeck wrote:

I know this is going down an off-topic sink hole, but I would be
interested to hear another pilot (I assume you are a pilot, if
you're here?) give a cogent, logical, scientifically-proven defense
of your beliefs.

Is that possible?

Yes. It was all contained in the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy."
The answer to the ultimate question was "42". And that just about sums
it all up.

Amen, brother!

"James Robinson" wrote in message
...
Jay Honeck wrote:

I know this is going down an off-topic sink hole, but I would be
interested to hear another pilot (I assume you are a pilot, if
you're here?) give a cogent, logical, scientifically-proven defense
of your beliefs.

Is that possible?

Yes. It was all contained in the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy."
The answer to the ultimate question was "42". And that just about sums
it all up.

So sayeth the Shepherd, so sayeth the Flock! 42.

Chip, ZTL

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:16:52 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:


Sadly, I must conclude that you are sincere. I know this is going down an
off-topic sink hole, but I would be interested to hear another pilot (I
assume you are a pilot, if you're here?) give a cogent, logical,
scientifically-proven defense of your beliefs.

Is that possible?

About the only thing I could accomplish on those terms is to relegate
all belief systems, including atheisms and agnosticisms, to the
logical scrap heap.

Except *mine*, of course, since *mine* makes perfect sense to *me*.
(Except where it doesn't, but like many believers I usually don't
worry that I have all the answers to all the questions.) But you've
defined away (maybe) the possibility of accepting premises you're not
willing to accept, the effort is probably fruitless.

BTAIM, the central notion in my own belief system is that no matter
what else, prayer works. I'm not talking about this or that form of
prayer. I'm not talking about asking for any old thing from God and
getting it. There's no magic set of words, and the conclusion is not
based on one lightning moment of conversion, it's based on a lifetime
of doing it. I'm talking about building a relationship with a real
person.

Simply that God is real, that He's pretty tolerant of
misunderstandings about Him, and that if you want to know more, He'll
lead you to the truth. He isn't described completely in any book of
scripture I know about, *including* the Bible. He hasn't invested
Godlike Flawlessness in any man, to lead us all to Heaven, though I do
not deny the notion that He inspires men, and even organizes them,
when He has something He wants to show us all.

I know that's not much to go on, but personally I don't have
stewardship over any other adult's decisions. Can't make you do
anything. Can't prove God exists or doesn't exist, since the only
experimentation I know about depends very unscientifically on the
motivations of the experimenter. The results manifest not in physical
phenomena, but in feeling coupled with clear thinking. If it improves
the quality of your life and becomes precious to you, God is the
source of it.

Sorry.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

Simply that God is real, that He's pretty tolerant of
misunderstandings about Him, and that if you want to know more, He'll
lead you to the truth. He isn't described completely in any book of
scripture I know about, *including* the Bible.

What do you think about the Baha'i faith?

It addresses this very notion that no one religion (or book) captures the
spirit of God. I've found their theory of "Progressive Revelation" (in
short: All religions reveal a little piece of God, in their time) to be one
of the most logical approaches to religion.

Sadly, it's weighted down with a cult of personality toward its founder that
makes it all too familiar to a fallen-away Catholic.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Robert,

including atheisms and agnosticisms, t


Those are not belief systems. Calling them "non-belief" systems might
be more accurate. And that's the whole point.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

I can understand why you feel you need to capitalize the "G" on god, but why
do you have to capitalize the "H" in "he?"

mike regish

"Robert Perkins" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:16:52 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:


Sadly, I must conclude that you are sincere. I know this is going down
an
off-topic sink hole, but I would be interested to hear another pilot (I
assume you are a pilot, if you're here?) give a cogent, logical,
scientifically-proven defense of your beliefs.

Is that possible?

About the only thing I could accomplish on those terms is to relegate
all belief systems, including atheisms and agnosticisms, to the
logical scrap heap.

Except *mine*, of course, since *mine* makes perfect sense to *me*.
(Except where it doesn't, but like many believers I usually don't
worry that I have all the answers to all the questions.) But you've
defined away (maybe) the possibility of accepting premises you're not
willing to accept, the effort is probably fruitless.

BTAIM, the central notion in my own belief system is that no matter
what else, prayer works. I'm not talking about this or that form of
prayer. I'm not talking about asking for any old thing from God and
getting it. There's no magic set of words, and the conclusion is not
based on one lightning moment of conversion, it's based on a lifetime
of doing it. I'm talking about building a relationship with a real
person.

Simply that God is real, that He's pretty tolerant of
misunderstandings about Him, and that if you want to know more, He'll
lead you to the truth. He isn't described completely in any book of
scripture I know about, *including* the Bible. He hasn't invested
Godlike Flawlessness in any man, to lead us all to Heaven, though I do
not deny the notion that He inspires men, and even organizes them,
when He has something He wants to show us all.

I know that's not much to go on, but personally I don't have
stewardship over any other adult's decisions. Can't make you do
anything. Can't prove God exists or doesn't exist, since the only
experimentation I know about depends very unscientifically on the
motivations of the experimenter. The results manifest not in physical
phenomena, but in feeling coupled with clear thinking. If it improves
the quality of your life and becomes precious to you, God is the
source of it.

Sorry.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

On 2003-11-21 06:16:52 -0800, "Jay Honeck" said

...I would be interested to hear another pilot...give a cogent, logical
scientifically-proven defense of your beliefs

Is that possible

C. S. Lewis was neither a pilot nor a scientist, but he does a good job of
explaining things starting from a common reference point that has nothing to do
with God or any kind of religion in his book, _Mere Christianity_

Jay,

I'm not going to pile on here (really!), but I think Ian has a point.

When I read your missive, I immediately had the same initial reaction as Ian
apparently had. That is, perhaps you were uncomfortable with the conversation
not so much because you were offended, but because it made you suddenly aware of
"unfinished business" in your spiritual life.

I grew up in neither a Catholic nor a "Bible thumper" household. As such, I
don't carry much baggage, for better or for worse. I find some major problems to
the point of corruption with both extremes. When I read the Bible, I find no
mention of a pope/venal sins/mortal sins/purgatory/limbo/private
confessional/etc. Nor do I find it written that it is necessary to attend church
twice on Sunday and again on Wednesday, speak in tongues, claim to be "born
again", or not allowed to drink/gamble/swear/etc. Also, I haven't read anywhere
in the Bible that one cannot lead a moral life or enter the Kingdom (of heaven)
without being a practicing Jew or Christian (not that the word Christian appears
in the Bible that I'm aware of). All of this stuff that one camp or another
places emphasis on is just window dressing. The Bible is written in plain enough
language for one to understand what the point is.

The point is ... The only way to ENSURE that one enters the Kingdom is through
the grace of God, which for Christians is conveyed by belief in Jesus as Savior.
EVERYTHING else is secondary. Now, one can read the Old Testament or the Gospels
and find where the Lord want us to lead what can only be termed a moral life.
Mostly follow the "golden rule" if you distill it right down to dregs. Most all
of us were given free will to make our own decisions. Some of us are evil and
some are not. But we all are sinners and most of us can and should try do
better. But (and I can't quote chapter and verse) one cannot be asssured of
entering the Kingdom though good works alone.

Now most of us have heard that the Lord works in mysterious ways. I believe
that. I have never witnessed any miracles. Never had any "revelations". I don't
aurally hear the Lord speaking to me. Never had a vision. Never spoke in
tongues. I don't see an image of Mother Teresa in baked goods nor Jesus in the
shadow thown by a bug zapper (not that anybody after His time knows what He
looked like). But I find that I am occasionally moved to do something or make a
particular decision by a force that just comes out of nowhere. And every time
that has happend and I "listened", the result has been a blessing to me or to
someone I've helped. I can't igore that this is how the Lord nudges me to do His
work from time to time. My taking time to write this rant is the result of one
of these nudges. I hope it somehow provides a blessing to you or someone else
who might read this. In any case, please consider the possibility that your
encounter and the feelings it rasied a nudge you are getting from Him.

My advice is this: Put aside all the Catholic guilt trip and your reaction to
it. Pick up one of those Gideon King James Bibles you have at the hotel (or
better yet, get a modern translation), and read the Gospels again. After that,
decide one way or another what it's going to be for you. Get your spiritual
house in order - stop sitting on the fence. Once you've done that, you won't
feel so uncomfortable the next time you get suckered into a dialouge with
someone trying to spread whatever message that have.

Disclaimer: I'm not a theologian, preacher, priest, elder, deacon, minister,
pastor, or rabbi. Just a sinner and sheep in His flock.

Required aviation content: The existence of flying machines just points out to
me that the laws of physics are just too complicated and amazing to have been
left to chance.

Best regards,

Steve Robertson
N4732J 1967 Beechcraft A23-24

Ian wrote:

Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?

snip!.

Your rejection of the message does not diminish its truth.

And another...

mike regish

"Steve Robertson" wrote in message
...
Jay,

I'm not going to pile on here (really!), but I think Ian has a point.

When I read your missive, I immediately had the same initial reaction as
Ian
apparently had. That is, perhaps you were uncomfortable with the
conversation
not so much because you were offended, but because it made you suddenly
aware of
"unfinished business" in your spiritual life.

I grew up in neither a Catholic nor a "Bible thumper" household. As such,
I
don't carry much baggage, for better or for worse. I find some major
problems to
the point of corruption with both extremes. When I read the Bible, I find
no
mention of a pope/venal sins/mortal sins/purgatory/limbo/private
confessional/etc. Nor do I find it written that it is necessary to attend
church
twice on Sunday and again on Wednesday, speak in tongues, claim to be
"born
again", or not allowed to drink/gamble/swear/etc. Also, I haven't read
anywhere
in the Bible that one cannot lead a moral life or enter the Kingdom (of
heaven)
without being a practicing Jew or Christian (not that the word Christian
appears
in the Bible that I'm aware of). All of this stuff that one camp or
another
places emphasis on is just window dressing. The Bible is written in plain
enough
language for one to understand what the point is.

The point is ... The only way to ENSURE that one enters the Kingdom is
through
the grace of God, which for Christians is conveyed by belief in Jesus as
Savior.
EVERYTHING else is secondary. Now, one can read the Old Testament or the
Gospels
and find where the Lord want us to lead what can only be termed a moral
life.
Mostly follow the "golden rule" if you distill it right down to dregs.
Most all
of us were given free will to make our own decisions. Some of us are evil
and
some are not. But we all are sinners and most of us can and should try do
better. But (and I can't quote chapter and verse) one cannot be asssured
of
entering the Kingdom though good works alone.

Now most of us have heard that the Lord works in mysterious ways. I
believe
that. I have never witnessed any miracles. Never had any "revelations". I
don't
aurally hear the Lord speaking to me. Never had a vision. Never spoke in
tongues. I don't see an image of Mother Teresa in baked goods nor Jesus in
the
shadow thown by a bug zapper (not that anybody after His time knows what
He
looked like). But I find that I am occasionally moved to do something or
make a
particular decision by a force that just comes out of nowhere. And every
time
that has happend and I "listened", the result has been a blessing to me or
to
someone I've helped. I can't igore that this is how the Lord nudges me to
do His
work from time to time. My taking time to write this rant is the result of
one
of these nudges. I hope it somehow provides a blessing to you or someone
else
who might read this. In any case, please consider the possibility that
your
encounter and the feelings it rasied a nudge you are getting from Him.

My advice is this: Put aside all the Catholic guilt trip and your reaction
to
it. Pick up one of those Gideon King James Bibles you have at the hotel
(or
better yet, get a modern translation), and read the Gospels again. After
that,
decide one way or another what it's going to be for you. Get your
spiritual
house in order - stop sitting on the fence. Once you've done that, you
won't
feel so uncomfortable the next time you get suckered into a dialouge with
someone trying to spread whatever message that have.

Disclaimer: I'm not a theologian, preacher, priest, elder, deacon,
minister,
pastor, or rabbi. Just a sinner and sheep in His flock.

Required aviation content: The existence of flying machines just points
out to
me that the laws of physics are just too complicated and amazing to have
been
left to chance.

Best regards,

Steve Robertson
N4732J 1967 Beechcraft A23-24

Ian wrote:

Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?

snip!.

Your rejection of the message does not diminish its truth.