Flaps on take-off and landing

Larry Dighera wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:
The idea is to try to approach real life. Additionally, many things
are simulated. If adjusting flaps has a bad effect in real life,
there's a good chance that it has a bad effect in simulation as well.

Are you aware that you are discussing this with one of the programmers
who wrote MS Flight Simulator?

I cross-checked the names of the posters to this thread with the published
MS FS credits I could find and I still don't know who you're talking about
Larry. Unless Bruce Artwick is posting using a non-obvious handle? :-)

Okay, I guess I might as well come clean...

"Jim Logajan" wrote in message
.. .
Are you aware that you are discussing this with one of the programmers
who wrote MS Flight Simulator?

I cross-checked the names of the posters to this thread with the published
MS FS credits I could find and I still don't know who you're talking about
Larry. Unless Bruce Artwick is posting using a non-obvious handle? :-)

Which "published MS FS credits"?

Did you look here (for example)?
http://www.mobygames.com/game/window...r-2000/credits

Now, that said, one of the primary reasons I no longer work for Microsoft is
because of the fiasco surrounding the release of MSFS 2000 and the
remarkably low quality of that product. Frankly, I'm a bit embarassed to be
associated with it at all (though I admit to being happy that my final
contribution before leaving was to fix a particularly egregious performance
bug in the coastline rendering code, so at least after the Christmas patch
that year it didn't quite suck as much as it did when it was released to
manufacturing...and no, the bug I fixed wasn't my fault).

My stint with the MSFS team was a last-ditch effort to recapture the joy I
had had in programming, sucked dry from one bad corporate bureaucratic
experience after another. Suffice to say, it didn't work out (well,
actually I guess it did...I'm much happier now that I code for the pure joy
of it, I just don't work for Microsoft anymore ).

Anyway, that's a long way of saying I don't generally like to bring up my
involvement with MSFS. IMHO, the product released makes me look bad by
association.

Pete

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 17:16:10 -0000, Jim Logajan
wrote in :

Larry Dighera wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:
The idea is to try to approach real life. Additionally, many things
are simulated. If adjusting flaps has a bad effect in real life,
there's a good chance that it has a bad effect in simulation as well.

Are you aware that you are discussing this with one of the programmers
who wrote MS Flight Simulator?

I cross-checked the names of the posters to this thread with the published
MS FS credits I could find and I still don't know who you're talking about
Larry. Unless Bruce Artwick is posting using a non-obvious handle? :-)


If you go back through the message thread, you'll see who Mxsmanic was
discussing with at the time I posted the follow-up article..

Mxsmanic,

Is this the correct way to
do it?


No. But who cares - you're not flying, you're simming.

For take-off, it is usually done as part of the "before take-off"
checklist, which is done at the holding point of the runway, but not on
the runway. You don't want to spend much time sitting on the runway.
Also, many planes do not require flaps for take-off.

For landing, you don't want to accidentally touch the wrong switch
while in a hurry on the runway (e.g. the gear switch - happens often).
Your primary concern is to get off the runway. After that, stop and
complete the after landing checklist, which includes flaps.

Your stall speed is reduced by the flaps by maybe 10 or 20 knots. If
the wind is blowing enough for your stall speed to be a factor - don't
fly.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas Borchert wrote:
Mxsmanic,

Is this the correct way to
do it?


No. But who cares - you're not flying, you're simming.

For take-off, it is usually done as part of the "before take-off"
checklist, which is done at the holding point of the runway, but not on
the runway. You don't want to spend much time sitting on the runway.
Also, many planes do not require flaps for take-off.

For landing, you don't want to accidentally touch the wrong switch
while in a hurry on the runway (e.g. the gear switch - happens often).
Your primary concern is to get off the runway. After that, stop and
complete the after landing checklist, which includes flaps.

Your stall speed is reduced by the flaps by maybe 10 or 20 knots. If
the wind is blowing enough for your stall speed to be a factor - don't
fly.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

In our club Cessna Cardinal I typically touch down, and set a nose high
attitude to get some aerodynamic braking going with the flaps down, as
soon as I feel the brake pedals have effect I'll set flaps to zero, by
the time the flaps are lifted about 15 degrees of deflection the
aerodynamic braking has become negligible and it's all in the pedals
(around 30 KIAS), also Hawai'i has some messed up winds, 0 knot winds
prevail from evening till morning while morning will have around 10
knot winds at 040, while the afternoon will have 15-ish gusting to
30-ish at 030 to 050, so having flaps down on the ground is a negative
because I've seen airplanes start flying halfway through their roll-out
after landing.

I agree and consider Flaps a "luxury", to be used only when necessary. Fly
the airplane...
wrote in message
ups.com...

Thomas Borchert wrote:
Mxsmanic,

Is this the correct way to
do it?


No. But who cares - you're not flying, you're simming.

For take-off, it is usually done as part of the "before take-off"
checklist, which is done at the holding point of the runway, but not on
the runway. You don't want to spend much time sitting on the runway.
Also, many planes do not require flaps for take-off.

For landing, you don't want to accidentally touch the wrong switch
while in a hurry on the runway (e.g. the gear switch - happens often).
Your primary concern is to get off the runway. After that, stop and
complete the after landing checklist, which includes flaps.

Your stall speed is reduced by the flaps by maybe 10 or 20 knots. If
the wind is blowing enough for your stall speed to be a factor - don't
fly.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

In our club Cessna Cardinal I typically touch down, and set a nose high
attitude to get some aerodynamic braking going with the flaps down, as
soon as I feel the brake pedals have effect I'll set flaps to zero, by
the time the flaps are lifted about 15 degrees of deflection the
aerodynamic braking has become negligible and it's all in the pedals
(around 30 KIAS), also Hawai'i has some messed up winds, 0 knot winds
prevail from evening till morning while morning will have around 10
knot winds at 040, while the afternoon will have 15-ish gusting to
30-ish at 030 to 050, so having flaps down on the ground is a negative
because I've seen airplanes start flying halfway through their roll-out
after landing.

,

knot winds
prevail from evening till morning while morning will have around 10
knot winds at 040, while the afternoon will have 15-ish gusting to
30-ish at 030 to 050, so having flaps down on the ground is a negative
because I've seen airplanes start flying halfway through their roll-out
after landing.


The Cardinal will not fly at gusts of 30 knots - no matter whether the
flaps are down or not.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas Borchert wrote:
,

knot winds
prevail from evening till morning while morning will have around 10
knot winds at 040, while the afternoon will have 15-ish gusting to
30-ish at 030 to 050, so having flaps down on the ground is a negative
because I've seen airplanes start flying halfway through their roll-out
after landing.


The Cardinal will not fly at gusts of 30 knots - no matter whether the
flaps are down or not.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Yes, but it will fly if your rolling along at 35 KIAS and a 25+ KIAS
knot gust hits you, anyway it wasn't the Cardinal I saw do it, it was a
piper cub, and yes I realize the chances of me doing that are slim, but
I don't want to be the example/statistic.

Thomas Borchert wrote:
,

knot winds
prevail from evening till morning while morning will have around 10
knot winds at 040, while the afternoon will have 15-ish gusting to
30-ish at 030 to 050, so having flaps down on the ground is a negative
because I've seen airplanes start flying halfway through their roll-out
after landing.


The Cardinal will not fly at gusts of 30 knots - no matter whether the
flaps are down or not.

BULL****. 20G33 was good student solo weather in Colorado where I
learned. We regularly took the Cardinal RG's out in these conditions.

Ron Natalie wrote:

BULL****. 20G33 was good student solo weather in Colorado where I
learned. We regularly took the Cardinal RG's out in these conditions.

It was my interpretation of Tom's post that the Cardinal will not fly
*prematurely* when taxiing in those wind conditions.

--
Peter