what every boy needs - yeah seriously

On Jan 12, 9:53*pm, "Maxwell" #$$9#@%%%.^^^ wrote:
wrote in message

Casting your own VW head can be done, but it's not nearly as easy as you
would like to suggest. If you have examples to the contrary, as I said
before, I'm not the only one on this news group that would love to see them.

As I said it it depends on your definition of easy. Sounds to me like
your one of those builders that is best sticking to a quick build RV
with a FWF package since everything has been already worked out.
Independent and creative thought apparently is a challenge for you.

If an RV is in fact the path you have chosen my condolences go out to
Mr. VanGrusvens customer service staff.
=======================
Leon McAtee

On Jan 8, 12:34*pm, " wrote:

What IS needed are aluminum head-castings having twice as much fin-
area as what's presently available. *This won't fit on a bug or bus so
there is no start-up money. *Coming up with the cores should have been
done by the EAA -- about fifty years ago. *The fact it wasn't *is good
evidence that it won't.

As I lay there taking my afternoon nap my mind wandered over this
subject and the thought came to me that we, at least I, have strayed
from the essence of this discussion and lost site of what we really
need to accomplish. Our goal. A real, hold in your hands, VW head
with adequate cooling capacity for aircraft power settings..

It has become quite clear that other than maybe 3 of us reading this
thread that the casting of things of this nature, "on the cheep" to
steal a phrase, is about as likely as being able to buy a Moller at
the local auto mart in the next decade. Even those that can grasp the
concepts needed to cast and machine some VW heads still need to build
or buy a whole set of new toy ..., er a ... tools. This doesn't get
any one closer to flying behind a VW conversion which is kind of the
point of this whole thought exercise isn't it?

The path being pursued might result in good cooling heads but only for
those of us that can make them as I doubt even once proven that
anybody would take on the production. There just wouldn't be enough
market. Could be wrong but I think we need to presume that these
things will never be kitted, only plans made items. Which means the
average home builder needs realistic ways to make them with out adding
another few hundred hours and dollars to the project just for heads.

'course there might be those that would enjoy learning casting as much
as building airplanes.................

My slumbering mind wandered to the solution of another of my flying
problems - the making of some props - and a comment my brother made
about using the same methods used to duplicate props to cut the fins
on our cast heads. Not a bad idea as I also remembered seeing a
tracing lathe operating at a science museum many years ago in Toronto
where I was attending an ultralight convention, way back in the late
70's. It was just finishing up duplicating a coke bottle and I
remember that it did a good enough job that the painted lettering was
duplicated in the steel replica as well.

So what would be so hard about adapting a propeller duplicating
pantograph to the task of finish machining a rough casting?

http://culverprops.com/culverintro.php Video here.
Substitute a Dremel/die grinder for the saw blade and add an
adjustable tracing wheel or point.

I'm thinking really basic casting here. Something with just the ports
and combustion chamber close to finished, with lumps else where as
needed. These castings would be simple enough that any back yard
caster that can make a core for the ports could ram them up using a
plaster cast pattern passed along from another builder. Those with
the desire could cast up several castings and sell for other
experimenters to finish at a very reasonable cost.

Since we are talking about using a pantograph the pattern need not be
1:1 scale. In fact something on the order of 3:1 lets the builder
work from full size drawings in plywood for fins and Bondo for glue
and filler when constructing the pattern.

Maybe with luck some homebuilders get together, use the divide and
conquer method, one making the castings and the second making the
milling machine?

But we now need a third homebuilder. One that can machine and install
the guides and valve seats and tap the various holes for studs. This
too is within the reach of a true home builder. The tools needed are
not that hard to make and the whole operation can be done by hand if
needed. I know some will scoff, but at one time just such tools were
sold by Assenmacher and others for the VW shops. The tough part was
getting the old seats out. They sold tools for that as well. A
simple drill press make things quicker. The required tools are quite
simple and anyone with access to a lathe and GOOD measuring tools can
make and use them. At this point any machine shop or VW mechanic can
hone/ream the guides, cut the seats with a Neway cutter (please use no
stones here), bore the head for the cylinder face and send you back to
bolt them on your short block.

Now with any luck I'll be over this crud in a few days and no longer
need my afternoon nap. Will be nice to get some real work done again
==========================
Leon McAtee

On Jan 13, 3:38*pm, "
wrote:

So what would be so hard about adapting a propeller duplicating
pantograph to the task of finish machining a rough casting?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Neat play on words :-)
The basic problem is one of rigidity. The initial cut must also be
your finished cut, with regard to width. Unfortunately, air heats as
it expands. If the walls of the fin are perpendicular then it's
ability to couple heat to the air becomes a function of the width of
the channel between the perpendicular 'walls' of your fins, as well as
the pressure of the air flowing in that perpendicularly walled
canyon. As it is, with the amount of draft found in the typical
casting, you need one hell of a lot of air-pressure for the thing to
work properly. In other words, if all you can do is make a vertically
sided cut, then the EFFECTIVE depth of the thing becomes a function of
its width. Since your width is also a function of the rigidity of
your tooling, with a width of an eighth of an inch or there abouts,
your effective depth is reduced to about half an inch. To go any
deeper, the walls would have to taper, or be stepped, or whatever.
This is based on the thermal transfer equations found in Taylor,
Liston and others.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
... The tough part was
getting the old seats out.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joke, right?

To remove swaged-in seats from aluminum heads you fire up your buzz-
box, fill your coffee cup with ice water, scratch an arc on one side
of the seat then weave a bead about 5/8" long x 3 passes 'deep,'
transfer your arc to the OPPOSITE side of the seat and do the same...
then dash your cup of iced water on the thing. Amidst the frying and
the hissing and the steam getting under your helmet you'll hear a
musical little PING! and your valve seat will be cocked up at an
angle, easily grasped with a pair of vise-grips welded to a barrel-
nut, which you've screwed to the business-end of your slide-hammer.
Give it a couple of slaps and there's your valve seat.

-R.S.Hoover

wrote in message
...
On Jan 8, 12:34 pm, " wrote:

What IS needed are aluminum head-castings having twice as much fin-
area as what's presently available. This won't fit on a bug or bus so
there is no start-up money. Coming up with the cores should have been
done by the EAA -- about fifty years ago. The fact it wasn't is good
evidence that it won't.

As I lay there taking my afternoon nap my mind wandered over this
subject and the thought came to me that we, at least I, have strayed
from the essence of this discussion and lost site of what we really
need to accomplish. Our goal. A real, hold in your hands, VW head
with adequate cooling capacity for aircraft power settings..

It has become quite clear that other than maybe 3 of us reading this
thread that the casting of things of this nature, "on the cheep" to
steal a phrase, is about as likely as being able to buy a Moller at
the local auto mart in the next decade. Even those that can grasp the
concepts needed to cast and machine some VW heads still need to build
or buy a whole set of new toy ..., er a ... tools. This doesn't get
any one closer to flying behind a VW conversion which is kind of the
point of this whole thought exercise isn't it?

-----------much more snipped, new post begins-----------

At the obvious cost of proving myself a heretic regarding VWs....

We could go back into the old debate about whether a nearly stock VW engine
could be a reliable 50 to 60hp powerplant with the right sort of pressure
cooling system. With all due respect to Bob, a/k/a Veeduber, I am still
convinced that it can; but he has also convinced me that it makes little or
no sense and will result in marginal performance.

The reality is that, as the displacement approaches 2.2 litres, the result
looks more and more like an over weight and under strength Jabiru. Worse
yet, the price difference narrows dramatically. And, if you place much
value on your time, the VW conversion becomes the more costly.

I admit that I still like the VW. But I also have to admit that, with the
Rotax and Jabiru as competition, it really belongs on a sngle seater.

Peter

..
On Jan 8, 12:34*pm, " wrote:
What IS needed are aluminum head-castings having twice as much fin-
area as what's presently available.
------------------------------------------------------------------

We need a CASTING because we need the DRAFT that goes with it.

Come up with a set of fins that leaves a clean impression in our
casting media and we'll automatically get a set of fins that does a
dandy job of coupling heat to air being forced down through, over,
passed an' whatever THROUGH those fins.

Now all we gotta do is come up with ENOUGH of those fins... as
determined by their area... to deal with the anticipated amount of
HEAT and we're on the road to Rio. Or where-ever.

-R.S.Hoover

....an' finally...
I gotta memory chip in my hand here that sez 'T2,' meaning it's got
mostly Teenie Two drawings on it. It is a two gigabyte chip, which
means it can't be ALL T2 stuff. Sure enough, one of the folders sez
'Engine.' Pull that up and there's about a dozen sub-files, one of
which is 'HEADS.' Pull THAT up and you got fifty drawings of VW
cylinder heads, a lot of which is bumpf... three nearly identical
drawings of the same thing representing sequential SAVE's so as not to
lose anything as I work on the drawing(s) (...which is a pretty
boring way to pass the day.... but a royal ****er to spend a whole day
doing a drawing only to LOSE the sonofabitch because I hit the wrong
button or whatever, hence lotsa copies of... whatever).

So why mention it? Because others may find some of the drawings of
interest. So provide me with a VALID address and I'll sendm' to you,
gratis.

-R.S.Hoover

On Jan 13, 10:02*pm, " wrote:

The basic problem is one of rigidity.

Agreed, thought about that too. Vibration is a significant concearn

*The initial cut must also be
your finished cut, with regard to width. *

Never actually done this, of course, but from my limited machining
experience I'm not too sure that it's not a task that can't be done.
I was thinking something like a 4" grinder mounted to the tool post
with a carbide saw blade. once the fins got thin/deep enough wrap
some rubber tube or o-ring material in the fins adjacent to the cut.

Joke, right?

To remove swaged-in seats from aluminum heads you fire up your buzz-
box,

Nope, no joke. Real life is a joke at times :-( The shop I started
at had no form of electric welder! The pull'n was done/attempted with
one of those slide hammer tools like a large oil piston remover. When
I moved on to my own shop I couldn't justify the cost of the tooling
needed for valve seat replacement since new heads were so cheep ....
Brazil owed us lots of money back then :-)

On Jan 14, 6:39*am, "
wrote:
On Jan 13, 10:02*pm, " wrote:

The basic problem is one of rigidity.

Agreed, thought about that too. *Vibration is a significant concearn

*The initial cut must also be

your finished cut, with regard to width. *

Never actually done this, of course, but from my limited machining
experience I'm not too sure that it's not a task that can't be done.
I was thinking something like a 4" grinder mounted to the tool post
with a carbide saw blade. *once the fins got thin/deep enough wrap
some rubber tube or o-ring material in the fins adjacent to the cut.

Joke, right?

To remove swaged-in seats from aluminum heads you fire up your buzz-
box,

Nope, no joke. *Real life is a joke at times :-( * The shop I started
at had no form of electric welder! *The pull'n was done/attempted with
one of those slide hammer tools like a large oil piston remover. *When
I moved on to my own shop I couldn't justify the cost of the tooling
needed for valve seat replacement since new heads were so cheep ....
Brazil owed us lots of money back then :-)

How about welding some extra fin material to an existing head?

Ed

On Jan 13, 10:06*pm, "Peter Dohm" wrote:

At the obvious cost of proving myself a heretic regarding VWs....

We could go back into the old debate about whether a nearly stock VW engine
could be a reliable 50 to 60hp powerplant with the right sort of pressure
cooling system. *With all due respect to Bob, a/k/a Veeduber, I am still
convinced that it can

I have to side with VeeDuber here. I've got the benefit of experience
he probably doesn't. All my ground bound VW's operated at a density
altitude of 7000 ft - on average. When it comes too cooling by air it
takes air to do the cooling. We have less of it here than folks in
his area do.

A VW bus with a stock 1600cc was marginal and if modified to give it's
rated hp at our density altitude cooling became enemy number one. My
motors lasted longer than the guys across town in large part because I
was PICKY about the cooling, going to such extremes as siliconeing the
gap between the fan housing and the cylinder covers to keep the
cooling air inside. I bought spark plug hole seals by the
hundreds.............

The later model bus with the 1700/2000 would even show signs of heat
stress in stock form if the seal between the engine and body was
missing (flat rate shop across town never put them back).

Point is, cooling these things IS a problem. As much as I like the
old air-cooled VW's they have real problems and limitations. The most
reliable VW bus motor was one I ripped out of a Rabbit and stuffed
into the hole. 100K miles later with no heating problems, more hill
climbing power and fuel efficiency made the cost of the swaps worth
every penny. Rabbit radiator fits under the deck sideways and the
customers had heat too..... no more scraping the ice off the inside of
the windows as you drove.

BTW did you know that a stripped 8 valve VW water cooled motor weighs
LESS than an air cooled TP IV? Rather than keep flogging the air-
cooled why not try a belt PSRU on one of these canted over at about 45
degrees?

Simple as an air-cooled 1600 based VW? No. More reliable? Probably.
==============================
Leon McAtee

wrote in message
...
On Jan 13, 10:06 pm, "Peter Dohm" wrote:

At the obvious cost of proving myself a heretic regarding VWs....

We could go back into the old debate about whether a nearly stock VW
engine
could be a reliable 50 to 60hp powerplant with the right sort of pressure
cooling system. With all due respect to Bob, a/k/a Veeduber, I am still
convinced that it can

I have to side with VeeDuber here. I've got the benefit of experience
he probably doesn't. All my ground bound VW's operated at a density
altitude of 7000 ft - on average. When it comes too cooling by air it
takes air to do the cooling. We have less of it here than folks in
his area do.

A VW bus with a stock 1600cc was marginal and if modified to give it's
rated hp at our density altitude cooling became enemy number one. My
motors lasted longer than the guys across town in large part because I
was PICKY about the cooling, going to such extremes as siliconeing the
gap between the fan housing and the cylinder covers to keep the
cooling air inside. I bought spark plug hole seals by the
hundreds.............

The later model bus with the 1700/2000 would even show signs of heat
stress in stock form if the seal between the engine and body was
missing (flat rate shop across town never put them back).

Point is, cooling these things IS a problem. As much as I like the
old air-cooled VW's they have real problems and limitations. The most
reliable VW bus motor was one I ripped out of a Rabbit and stuffed
into the hole. 100K miles later with no heating problems, more hill
climbing power and fuel efficiency made the cost of the swaps worth
every penny. Rabbit radiator fits under the deck sideways and the
customers had heat too..... no more scraping the ice off the inside of
the windows as you drove.

BTW did you know that a stripped 8 valve VW water cooled motor weighs
LESS than an air cooled TP IV? Rather than keep flogging the air-
cooled why not try a belt PSRU on one of these canted over at about 45
degrees?

Simple as an air-cooled 1600 based VW? No. More reliable? Probably.
==============================
Leon McAtee

Interesting. I did not know that the 8 valve VW was lighter than the Type
IV, especially since I believed that it probably had an iron block. I have
never been a fan of reduction drives; but there were a lot of conversions
based upon inline fours with belt reduction drives during that time period.
AFAIK, several were quite successfull. And a lot of the newer engines are
lighter for their power and might be easier to cool.

Peter