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Too many accidents



 
 
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  #81  
Old September 10th 18, 09:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,124
Default Too many accidents

On Monday, September 10, 2018 at 3:57:28 PM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
So how does one demonstrate or practice a spin or incipient spin without "misusing" the rudder?

[Puchaz excepted]


Put the CG behind the aft limit and a gust that hits the two wing tips differently can be enough to cause an asymetrical departure.
UH
  #82  
Old September 11th 18, 12:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Daly[_2_]
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Posts: 718
Default Too many accidents

On Monday, September 10, 2018 at 3:57:28 PM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
So how does one demonstrate or practice a spin or incipient spin without "misusing" the rudder?

[Puchaz excepted]


I just read the USAF TP School report on the ASK-21/TG-9. They found cases where at the stall, aileron adverse jaw from an attempt to pick up a wing drop was enough to cause the departure (P. 88 "No Rudder Spin Entry" paragraph). Interesting read... Downloaded from DTIC (AD-A213513 July 1989). dtic..mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a213513.pdf

Dan
  #83  
Old September 11th 18, 12:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 1,463
Default Too many accidents

On Monday, September 10, 2018 at 12:47:39 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, September 10, 2018 at 12:37:36 AM UTC-7, Charlie Quebec wrote:
I would put more weight on anything Bruno has to say, than anything you have to say.


So, are you saying that misuse of the rudder is ok? If so, I TRULY wish you luck because you will NEED IT!

Here is another Bruno bad example video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCr-H_ZkBOo

I always was filled with mirth when someone walked through the front door of the office and said they wanted a glider flight "like Bruno". I would always say, let's go see how much fun we can have. Bruno does a lot for soaring, be it the excellent yearly fully subscribed Nephi events, or his well viewed videos. I love watching his videos. However, Bruno is a very experienced pilot, some events in his videos should not be tried by less experienced pilots or YOU WILL DIE. YouTube has many videos of experts doing things non-experts should not. "A man's got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan
  #84  
Old September 11th 18, 12:56 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
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Posts: 608
Default Too many accidents

LOL. You do know that Tom is vehemently on the record that he thinks "fully subscribed Nephi events" are dangerous because of the large number of gliders flying in one location. Search back on r.a.s. a couple of seasons.

Not sure what exactly the bee in the bonnet is here as regards Bruno, but there definitely seems to be something funky going on. Time to deploy some grains of salt. The '300' thermalling' video has already been broadly and deeply discussed here, on social media and probably in a hangar or two. The minimum altitude on the altimeter was 5,850'. The field elevation is 5,022'. The difference is marketing.

:-)

9B

On Monday, September 10, 2018 at 4:30:18 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Monday, September 10, 2018 at 12:47:39 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, September 10, 2018 at 12:37:36 AM UTC-7, Charlie Quebec wrote:
I would put more weight on anything Bruno has to say, than anything you have to say.


So, are you saying that misuse of the rudder is ok? If so, I TRULY wish you luck because you will NEED IT!

Here is another Bruno bad example video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCr-H_ZkBOo

I always was filled with mirth when someone walked through the front door of the office and said they wanted a glider flight "like Bruno". I would always say, let's go see how much fun we can have. Bruno does a lot for soaring, be it the excellent yearly fully subscribed Nephi events, or his well viewed videos. I love watching his videos. However, Bruno is a very experienced pilot, some events in his videos should not be tried by less experienced pilots or YOU WILL DIE. YouTube has many videos of experts doing things non-experts should not. "A man's got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan

  #85  
Old September 11th 18, 03:18 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 1,439
Default Too many accidents

On Monday, September 10, 2018 at 4:56:59 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
LOL. You do know that Tom is vehemently on the record that he thinks "fully subscribed Nephi events" are dangerous because of the large number of gliders flying in one location. Search back on r.a.s. a couple of seasons.

Not sure what exactly the bee in the bonnet is here as regards Bruno, but there definitely seems to be something funky going on. Time to deploy some grains of salt. The '300' thermalling' video has already been broadly and deeply discussed here, on social media and probably in a hangar or two. The minimum altitude on the altimeter was 5,850'. The field elevation is 5,022'. The difference is marketing.

:-)

9B

On Monday, September 10, 2018 at 4:30:18 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Monday, September 10, 2018 at 12:47:39 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, September 10, 2018 at 12:37:36 AM UTC-7, Charlie Quebec wrote:
I would put more weight on anything Bruno has to say, than anything you have to say.

So, are you saying that misuse of the rudder is ok? If so, I TRULY wish you luck because you will NEED IT!

Here is another Bruno bad example video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCr-H_ZkBOo

I always was filled with mirth when someone walked through the front door of the office and said they wanted a glider flight "like Bruno". I would always say, let's go see how much fun we can have. Bruno does a lot for soaring, be it the excellent yearly fully subscribed Nephi events, or his well viewed videos. I love watching his videos. However, Bruno is a very experienced pilot, some events in his videos should not be tried by less experienced pilots or YOU WILL DIE. YouTube has many videos of experts doing things non-experts should not. "A man's got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan


I ASKED a simple question: how many gliders are too many at a single event. Bruno had plans to allow 80 gliders at his event. Everybody points to accidents after the fact and say "Why wasn't something done?" Apparently you think that 80 is just fine - we can just agree to disagree. But many are not happy with that: they want to repress ALL opinions that disagree with theirs. If my insight can save a SINGLE accident from happening, then it is more than worth it to absorb the abuse that I have received from people like you.

Tom
  #86  
Old September 11th 18, 03:21 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 1,463
Default Too many accidents

On Monday, September 10, 2018 at 4:56:59 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
LOL. You do know that Tom is vehemently on the record that he thinks "fully subscribed Nephi events" are dangerous because of the large number of gliders flying in one location. Search back on r.a.s. a couple of seasons.

Not sure what exactly the bee in the bonnet is here as regards Bruno, but there definitely seems to be something funky going on. Time to deploy some grains of salt. The '300' thermalling' video has already been broadly and deeply discussed here, on social media and probably in a hangar or two. The minimum altitude on the altimeter was 5,850'. The field elevation is 5,022'. The difference is marketing.

:-)

9B

On Monday, September 10, 2018 at 4:30:18 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Monday, September 10, 2018 at 12:47:39 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, September 10, 2018 at 12:37:36 AM UTC-7, Charlie Quebec wrote:
I would put more weight on anything Bruno has to say, than anything you have to say.

So, are you saying that misuse of the rudder is ok? If so, I TRULY wish you luck because you will NEED IT!

Here is another Bruno bad example video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCr-H_ZkBOo

I always was filled with mirth when someone walked through the front door of the office and said they wanted a glider flight "like Bruno". I would always say, let's go see how much fun we can have. Bruno does a lot for soaring, be it the excellent yearly fully subscribed Nephi events, or his well viewed videos. I love watching his videos. However, Bruno is a very experienced pilot, some events in his videos should not be tried by less experienced pilots or YOU WILL DIE. YouTube has many videos of experts doing things non-experts should not. "A man's got to know his limitations" Harry Callahan


Thank you for that information Andy, I was not aware of 2G's position on "fully subscribed Nephi events". I usually don not read his posts.
  #87  
Old September 11th 18, 05:26 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,939
Default Too many accidents

George Haeh wrote on 9/10/2018 12:57 PM:
So how does one demonstrate or practice a spin or incipient spin without "misusing" the rudder?

[Puchaz excepted]


In my ASW 20C and ASH 26 E, I could easily get a wing drop from coordinated
flight. I never let either enter a full spin, but always recovered at less than a
quarter turn. Easy to do: I circle at about 20 degree bank while continuously
slowing down, always maintaining coordinated flight; at some point as I slow, the
inner wing will drop and can not be picked up with the ailerons. So, spin entry
with no rudder misuse, just flying too slowly in a turn.

The above is harder to do at 30 degree bank, and I couldn't get it too happen at
40-45 degree bank. I did not experiment with different CG positions - mine was a
bit towards the aft side, but not near the rear limit.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf
  #88  
Old September 11th 18, 08:15 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ian[_2_]
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Posts: 89
Default Too many accidents

On 06/09/2018 17:16, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

While I respect Tom Knauff, his teachings and writings, I know my CFI
friend Dave, whom died in a planned spin with another CFI last week,
knew what a rudder does, Sergio, Don, all very experienced. These
are not the guys whom skills or knowledge are questioned. For that
matter how did Peter Maask spin in, he knew what a rudder does, and I
had heard that his trace showed safe speeds. I am afraid we will not
know what caused these accidents so we can learn how not to
experience these accidents. Why did Matt Wright still have max turn
puts at 60 degrees bank on that day?


This is a very worrying question. I wonder what portion of recent
fatalities involve current, highly experienced but older pilots making
unexplained mistakes?

Anecdotally, I notice that quite a few of these accidents involve 2
seaters. Maybe when there are two, experienced, pilots on board, the
dynamics change - both waiting for each other to take control and
recover when things go wrong?

Maybe there have just been so many other advancements in technology like
weather forecasting, self launching, navigation, instrumentation etc
that experienced pilots are flying much further on a regular basis and
they are just more exposed to the next statistically random event?
  #89  
Old September 11th 18, 12:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 478
Default Too many accidents

On Tuesday, September 11, 2018 at 3:15:12 AM UTC-4, Ian wrote:
On 06/09/2018 17:16, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

While I respect Tom Knauff, his teachings and writings, I know my CFI
friend Dave, whom died in a planned spin with another CFI last week,
knew what a rudder does, Sergio, Don, all very experienced. These
are not the guys whom skills or knowledge are questioned. For that
matter how did Peter Maask spin in, he knew what a rudder does, and I
had heard that his trace showed safe speeds. I am afraid we will not
know what caused these accidents so we can learn how not to
experience these accidents. Why did Matt Wright still have max turn
puts at 60 degrees bank on that day?


This is a very worrying question. I wonder what portion of recent
fatalities involve current, highly experienced but older pilots making
unexplained mistakes?

Anecdotally, I notice that quite a few of these accidents involve 2
seaters. Maybe when there are two, experienced, pilots on board, the
dynamics change - both waiting for each other to take control and
recover when things go wrong?

Maybe there have just been so many other advancements in technology like
weather forecasting, self launching, navigation, instrumentation etc
that experienced pilots are flying much further on a regular basis and
they are just more exposed to the next statistically random event?


There is an old joke, based on a bit of truth like all good jokes, that the most dangerous crew in any aircraft is two instructors.
  #90  
Old September 11th 18, 02:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,124
Default Too many accidents

On Tuesday, September 11, 2018 at 12:26:48 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
George Haeh wrote on 9/10/2018 12:57 PM:
So how does one demonstrate or practice a spin or incipient spin without "misusing" the rudder?

[Puchaz excepted]


In my ASW 20C and ASH 26 E, I could easily get a wing drop from coordinated
flight. I never let either enter a full spin, but always recovered at less than a
quarter turn. Easy to do: I circle at about 20 degree bank while continuously
slowing down, always maintaining coordinated flight; at some point as I slow, the
inner wing will drop and can not be picked up with the ailerons. So, spin entry
with no rudder misuse, just flying too slowly in a turn.

The above is harder to do at 30 degree bank, and I couldn't get it too happen at
40-45 degree bank. I did not experiment with different CG positions - mine was a
bit towards the aft side, but not near the rear limit.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf


It is worth remembering that the inside wing in a turn is flying at a higher angle of attack than the outer wing. They are both descending at the same rate, but the inner wing is slower due to flying a shorter path. Add in the expectation that there is probably a small amount of top aileron to counteract the over banking tendency,and one can see why the inner wing will stall first and an incipient spin can result.
UH
 




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