New CFI

I couldn't disagree more. When I got my PPSEL I had two instructors one with
grey hair and one with very little. They were both great instructors. Over
the years I've flown with many other instructors old and young and never saw
any correlation between age and instruction skill. On the On the other hand
when I got my PP R-H I had a twenty one year old kid from Germany who was
over here building hours. He was without a doubt the best instructor I've
ever flown with. He was a much better instructor than his boss who had x000
hours flying medivac and his boss would agree.

Over the years I've flown with many other instructors old and young and good
and bad never saw any correlation between age and instruction skill. The
young ones that were below average were usually that way because of lack of
experience. The older ones who were below average were that way because they
were so set in their ways and wouldn't change with a gun to their head.
Experience can be earned but asshole goes all the way to the bone.

The worst instructor I ever had was probably the best pilot but he couldn't
teach worth a crap.


"xxx" wrote in message
oups.com...
If a CFI has hair and it isn't grey, keep looking.

Yah, I know, that's an unsupportable generalization. Somewhere
out there, along with Bigfoot and Nessie, there's a 20-something
with 252 hours who can do a great job on teaching you to fly. But
to get all my metaphores hopelessly confused, you'll have to kiss
a lot of frogs before the genie pops out of that particular lamp.

Find an older guy, preferably one who teaches as a hobby or as a
retirement project. Unless you really do live out in Bigfoot country,
it's all but certain that there is someone like that at some airfield
you can easily get to. It'll just take some legwork to find the right
match.

Nothing said here should be taken to mean that ALL old guys are good
instructors. Odds are, though, someone who has seen it all over the
course of decades knows more and is better at communicating it than
is the archetypal condescending punk who thinks he's on his way to a
fabulous airline career, once his days of suffering through the likes
of you are put paid.

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...

You've got the reference to the Chief Counsel's opinion on this? Please
cite URL so I can read it for myself.



Here you go Jim

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...ia/pt61FAQ.doc

scroll down to page 31 or 32. There are several other related questions as
well. It is a MSWord File. If you don't have Word let me know an I'd PDF it
and and e-mail it to you.

QUESTION: Do the rules permit a flight instructor to even receive
compensation for instruction when that flight instructor holds only a third
class medical, or maybe does not even hold a current medical certificate at
all?



ANSWER: § 61.23(b)(5); Yes, in accordance with § 61.23(b)(5), a flight
instructor who does not hold a medical certificate may give flight and
ground training and be compensated for it. In the preamble of the parts 61
and 141 final rule that was published in the Federal Register on April 4,
1997 (62 FR 16220-16367) when the FAA revised the entire Part 61, the FAA
stated the following in the Federal Register on page 16242 in response to
whether a medical certificate is required for a flight instructor to give
ground and flight training:



“ With respect to the holding of medical certificates by a flight
instructor, the FAA has determined that the compensation a certificated
flight instructor receives for flight instruction is not compensation for
piloting the aircraft, but rather is compensation for the instruction. A
certificated flight instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a
required flight crewmember and is receiving compensation for his or her
flight instruction is only exercising the privileges of a private pilot. A
certificated flight instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a
required flight crewmember and receiving compensation for his or her flight
instruction is not carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire,
nor is he or she, for compensation or hire, acting as pilot in command of an
aircraft. . . . In this same regard, the FAA has determined that a
certificated flight instructor on board an aircraft for the purpose of
providing flight instruction, who does not act as pilot in command or
function as a required flight crewmember, is not performing or exercising
pilot privileges that would require him or her to possess a valid medical
certificate under the FARs.”

A
certificated flight instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a
required flight crewmember and is receiving compensation for his or her
flight instruction is only exercising the privileges of a private pilot.

Which begs another question... while 61.183 stipulates that one must
have at least a commercial certificate to =apply= for CFI, it is
certainly possible (though unlikely) that after applying for and
becoming a CFI, one could lose their commercial certificate, retaining
only the private pilot certificate. One example would be voluntary
surrender for (weird) insurance or job reasons.

At that point one would have a private pilot and CFI. Is there anything
which prohibits the excercise of the CFI privileges, and charging for it?

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

I'm glad it worked out for you. There isn't one answer that fits
every pilot and every flight instructor all the time and in every
place.

As for me, I've had quite enough of blowing $150 or so to give fair
chances to green kids. My experiences with airline pilot wannabes are
almost entirely negative. My experiences with part-time instructors
who are accomplished professionals in some other field have been far
far better.

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
I couldn't disagree more. When I got my PPSEL I had two instructors one with
grey hair and one with very little.

"Jose" wrote in message
. ..
[...] after applying for and becoming a CFI, one could lose their
commercial certificate, retaining only the private pilot certificate. One
example would be voluntary surrender for (weird) insurance or job reasons.

Such as? Under what circumstances would the voluntary surrender of one's
Commercial certificate be beneficial for "insurance or job reasons"?

Also keep in mind that the FAA would also need to be willing to not only
accept the surrender of the Commercial certificate, they would have to
reissue the Private certificate. This doesn't sound like the sort of thing
a bureaucracy would actually do. Too much "not in the book" process. The
pilot would probably have to go through the whole Private certification
process all over again.

I'm having a hard time imagining an actual real-world, real-person scenario
in which a pilot could wind up keeping their CFI certificate, but not their
Commercial Pilot certificate. I'd put a modest wager that something like
that has never actually happened.

At that point one would have a private pilot and CFI. Is there anything
which prohibits the excercise of the CFI privileges, and charging for it?

As far as I know, no. But I also suspect this scenario has never existed,
and may never. So it's hard to say what the FAA would actually do with such
a scenario.

Pete

I'd agree with Rob. That and the New guy will normally have a better
attitude. He will usually still be quite excited by the prospect of flying,
and this can transfer to the student. Al CFIAMI



"Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...

RST Engineering wrote:
Except that the pilot (61.133 (b) (1)) will have stamped on their
certificate a prohibition about carrying persons for hire more than 50
miles
*or* at night without an instrument rating. I'd like to see a General
Counsel interpretation as to whether this clause would also prohibit
flight
instruction for hire to these limitations.

My suspicion is that it probably WOULD be interpreted with these
limitations, so cross country or night instruction would be out, and
would
severely limit the instructor rating.

It sounds to me like there it's a possibility that there's come
confusion regarding the difference between holding an instrument rating
(the instructor is allowed to fly IFR) and holding a CFII (Certificated
Flight Instructor, Instrument) rating (he's allowed to teach instrument
flying). (I know you know the difference Jim, I'm being this
descriptive for the benefit of the original poster). There have been
threads here regarding attaining a commercial or CFI certificate
without an instrument rating. As I recall (and as Pete said) at least
the commercial is definitely possible. I'd also bet it's relatively
uncommon.

As for the original question regarding flying with a brand new CFI...
I'd do it. As a student and as a pilot you'll get the opportunity to
fly with several instructors of varying style and ability. Finding a
CFI who has a teaching style compatible with your learning style is way
more important than the number of years your teacher has held his
credentials. Call me crazy, but I put a little faith in the system.
When the FAA says you're worthy of the private pilot certificate, will
you trust yourself to fly yourself? The FAA says the young CFI is
worthy of teaching you to fly, and he's been through a wringer to get
them to say it.

-R

Under what circumstances would the voluntary surrender of one's
Commercial certificate be beneficial for "insurance or job reasons"?

I don't know. I pulled it out of my posterior. From the same place I'd
conjecture an employment prohibition on hiring a commercial pilot. It's
as logical as the prohibition on allowing a pilot-employee to fly his
own airplane to a work related event. Perhaps it's to avoid even the
appearance of an air-taxi operation. I don't know and it doesn't matter.

I also agree it probably never has in fact happened.

Also keep in mind that the FAA would also need to be willing to not only
accept the surrender of the Commercial certificate, they would have to
reissue the Private certificate.

I don't see why not. I do think that they would, as a matter of course,
only do it if the surrender included the CFI, but bureaucracies make
mistakes, and it is not inconcievable that the pilot could end up
causing the FAA to amend its FAQ.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Y'All,
Into my first flying lesson I brought a life time of reading and interest in
aviation. I had made model aircraft and ships most of my life. I could
identify most flying and non-flying aircraft since the Wrights. In WWII I
had learned electronics, how to read a chart, use an E6-B and navigate. I
had taught LORAN navigation and radar bombardment as a corporal on
simulators to the most unwilling group imaginable. Officers who resented
learning a new way to navigate or bomb using electronics prone to
operational failure.

I went on after the war and college to teach retarded and learning disabled
children. I find that teaching is much the same regardless of the situation
and subject. Those who can, do. Those who can't teach. Those who can't do
eitrher administrate.

I was a student pilot at age 42. I was my first instructor's first solo. I
went on to another new instructor and became his first private pilot. I
became a ground school instructor when the class instructor suggested that I
take over his program. I taught the program for six years. I was the first
commercial pilot of my next instructor. I was my next instructors first
CFI. I was my next instructors first instrument pilot and my next
instructors first CFII rated instructor.

I became a flight instructor to get even. I tried harder to do a good
instructional job with my first student than ever since. I was very
fortunate in not having to study for or pass the instructional side of the
flight instructor's program. As a credential certified teacher I was
exempt. I would never have passed the test. 99% educational garbage theory
finally discarded a few years ago..

My instrucional program is still based upon the little spiral FAA guide of
some 32 lessons that I used in my training. Upon that base I have added
several essentials that have made a recognizable difference in my students.

First requirement is area familiarization and directional knowledge. Second
requirement is using the first requirement to know what to say and when to
say it on the radio. Third requirement is being able to put your aircraft
where you want it, when you want it there and at the exact speed and
configuration best for the situation. All the rest is frosting and I do
teach the frosting at every opportunity.
Gene Whitt

Hey all-

Well, sorry for any bags of worms that were opened on account of my original
post. :-)

I thought I would update the post now that I have a little more information.
I spoke with this new flight instructor today for about 20 minutes. It
turns out he is instrument rated (not CFII), high altitude and complex as
well. He has actually flown off and on for 25 years. He just recently
decided that life is too short to waste doing something you don't want to do
and decided to get his CFI and start flight training full time. He is just
about to get his CFII. Obviously I still don't really know him but after
talking with him I am comfortable enough to give it a shot. After all, as
you all (and the instructor) have pointed out, I can always change
instructors if I don't feel like it is working out. So....I am off. My
first lesson will be in a couple weeks. I will check back as things
progress.

I really do appreciate all the input that everyone puts into these
newsgroups.

Cya-

Jeremy



"Mediacom" wrote in message
news:JmcNe.260850$x96.20579@attbi_s72...
Well, after lingering in these groups for a while and dreaming about the
day I could start flight lessons I think that day is finally here. I made
a trip out to the local FBO to figure out what exactly the next step is
and more specifically how I go about choosing a flight instructor. It
turns out that the experienced instructors all have pretty full schedules
mainly because of charter flights. There is at least one experienced CFI
that might have some openings. The manager of the FBO recommended that I
talk to a new CFI at the FBO. He is brand new. He just got his CFI a few
months ago and he is not instrument rated. I guess I am looking for any
advice on starting lessons with a "baby" CFI. Obvious concerns are 1.
That he will be hesitant to put his students up for a check ride because
he will not want them to fail. 2. I might miss out on the wisdom of a
more experienced pilot. 3. His lack of an instrument rating will make me
miss out on some wisdom in that area as well. Obviously I know that CFIs
have to start with a blank slate and I am not necessarily opposed to
taking up lessons with him. I'm just interested in any feedback.

Thanks!

Jeremy

Thanks for the update Jeremy

Just a suggestion, once you start don't ever leave or cancel a lesson
without scheduling another one. Even if you have to schedule it 2 or 3
weeks out. This will ensure that you keep progressing. Minimum of once
a week is a good goal.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL