Almost perfect payout winch launch.

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 10:26:31 AM UTC-6, Greg Arnold wrote:
On 5/7/2013 9:23 AM, Tony wrote:

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 11:02:14 AM UTC-5, Don Johnstone wrote:

At 14:07 07 May 2013, Bill D wrote: On Monday, May 6, 2013 10:46:40 PM UTC-6, Waveguru wrote: If we had slowed down a little, and tightened up the tension a bit, we could have added a couple hundred more feet? What do you think about the "Payout Winch"? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5WDiHHgua8 Boggs I think if you had a real winch and learned how to use it safely, you'd get a lot higher. I think that is the most complicated and potentially dangerous method of winch launching that I have ever seen. I am completely sold on winching, having made over 10000 launches on many types of winch over the years. I have to say that some of the winches I have used, including a converted Rover car have been less than ideal, and perhaps a little unwise, but this has to be the most foolhardy version I have ever come across. I would be the first to admit that there are several potential hazards in winch launching but a system as complex as that is an accident ju

st waiting to happen. Please stop it guys, get a proper conventional winch if that is the way you want to go, or go to a straight forward auto tow.



i'm interested to hear more about your opinion. Gary's payout winch basically has built in tension control in that if, say, the glider hits a thermal on the climb, instead of the line loading up and breaking, it just lets out more line so you get to use that thermal to climb higher.



hang glider guys use payout winches a lot to launch in the flat lands.





Their stall speed is a lot slower. I am not sure that I understand how

you could use a payout winch with a glider unless the truck is driving

at a tremendous speed.

That's the basic problem. Payout winches are less a winch launch than auto-tow with a variable rope length and a built-in rope management system. In a traditional auto-tow, you must set aside enough distance for the tow vehicle to accelerate to tow speed and then stop at the far end plus the rope length - what's left is used for the launch.

The payout scheme helps with the acceleration phase in that the tow vehicle can accelerate while paying out rope so the acceleration distance and rope length requirements overlap then at the departure end, the tow vehicle can stop as fast as possible while the on-board winch pulls in the slack rope. All this is much easier with a slow hang glider.

The takeoff roll seemed slow and the climb angle seemed shallow similar to auto-tow indicating the height achieved was lower than traditional winches where the takeoff roll is very short and the climb angle is around 45 degrees.

Low achieved height can be a safety issue. I call it the "end trap" where the glider reaches the departure end without enough height to safely turn back and nowhere to land ahead. This doesn't mean I think what Gary is doing is unsafe. That depends on the options available to the pilot in the event of a launch failure.

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 11:07:58 AM UTC-6, Morgan wrote:

We are working on getting our glider winch going. I will let you know how I think they compare once we have our ducks in a row and are launching with it.

Morgan

As part of "getting your ducks in a row" please plan on some formal winch training.

At 17:27 07 May 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 11:07:58 AM UTC-6, Morgan wrote:

We are working on getting our glider winch going. I will let you know
how I think they compare once we have our ducks in a row and are
launching
with it.

Morgan

As part of "getting your ducks in a row" please plan on some formal winch
training.

AMEN to that, not only have I been on the receiving end of 10000 lauches
but I have probably done even more as a winch driver.
I have driven converted WW2 balloon wiches, converted bus, rover car and
combine harvester winches and others up to the Munster Van Gelder and
Skylaunch. They are all inherently hazardous but with properly trained
drivers and correct procedures the risks can be minimised. The key is the
simpler the better.
A few dollars spent in getting the expertise and proper training will save
money and more importantly lives.
Even with the expertise we have over here we still get caught out from time
to time and we are still learning, well some of us are.

On May 7, 10:27*am, Bill D wrote:
We are working on getting our glider winch going. *I will let you know how I think they compare once we have our ducks in a row and are launching with it.
As part of "getting your ducks in a row" please plan on some formal winch training.

We have several members (including instructors) with winch launching
experience AND are planning on bringing in a winch-current CFI-G.

Bart

Thanks Bill!
After many auto tow launches, I just completed the winch course with AGCSC at Jucumba CA and will add these documents to my reference library.

Bill T

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 8:42:15 PM UTC-6, Bill T wrote:
Thanks Bill!

After many auto tow launches, I just completed the winch course with AGCSC at Jucumba CA and will add these documents to my reference library.



Bill T

Apparently I linked to the PPT twice (funny how there URL's start to look alike) Here's the one I intended to link to.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...operations.pdf

A few safety issues safety issues.
The strop. i.e. the rope between the rings and the parachute appears to be
very flexible. If the glider roles forward when taking up slack and overuns
the cable it can easily get caught in the wheel box meaning the glider
cannot release at the top of the launch. Encasing this bit of rope in a
plastic tube (garden hose) should aleviate the problem.

This strop should also be quite long. We were using a short one at Lasham
for years until we had a winch failure just as the glider left the ground.
The chute opened and draped itself over the cockpit when the glider was a a
few feet in the air. A wonderful cure for constipation.

The payout winch does not appear to have any form of guilotine.
If the glider cannot release you need to have some way of freeing it from
the winch so it has a chance to make a landing.

The BGA advice on winch launching can be found here_
http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/saf...hlaunching.htm

Here's another video of our payout winch in operation at the Alvord Desert:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP8bVgG8xJc

Boggs

Just a few notes on Gary's Payout winch System.

I have done Winch Launches, Auto Tows and have had the privilege of launching with Gary's payout winch.

It has been a few years since I have launched with it, and it appears Gary has perfected the technique and winch some since I have used it. He has been using the system for quite a few years now. He was using an electric rewinder and less payout at the start of the tow when I did it. But he may have modified the technique from what I am going to describe.

From the glider end when I was towing with it seems like a normal Auto Tow to start with, However once nearing the top of the climb for the rope he had payed out, he would start paying out more rope. This was easy to determine from the glider end and we just lowered the nose to maintain airspeed while he payed out more rope. He would then increase the tension and we would go back into a steep climb.

I was doing it on a very long dry lake, but was getting 2200 feet or more on a tow. I am sure we could have gone higher if we wanted to. It is a bit different in that it is a stepped climb, as opposed to the constant climb you get with an auto tow or winch launch, but still very easy do.

Some advantages of the system are that...
it probably cost 1/10 what a winch would cost
It is entirely portable, no equipment is left on the field or needs to be setup
It retrieves the rope and resets almost as quickly as you can return to the staging area.

I am sure he has a guillotine in the system, I probably wouldn't have towed with it if he didn't.

Since I haven't used it on a shorter runway, I can't comment on how it compares to an auto tow for launch height.

The initial climb is identical to an auto tow and will get the glider high enough for a 180 or even a 360 degree turn back to the runway typically before he starts paying out line.

Thanks Gary, I enjoyed towing behind your system, Perhaps will do it again someday.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

I replaced the electric retrieve motor with a 6hp Honda. The electric just didn't have enough poop to pull the chute back well. We've been using this payout winch for years now, and it works very well. It is simple and safe.. We are continuing to improve our technique tho. We used to start with the brake set, and accelerate the truck and glider together. But we changed that to accelerating the truck with the brake off, and the line paying out, and after the truck is up to speed, we then set the brake to the proper tension. This worked much better. The glider gets up to flying speed, and off the ground, much quicker, and therefor has control sooner, and gets higher.
The payout winch has several advantages over a conventional winch or auto tow in that when the glider hits lift, the line simply pays out faster. We almost never have any rope breaks because the tension on the brake is never supposed to be set above the breaking strength of the weak link.

It's too bad that some people, that have no idea what we are doing, immediately label it as bad and dangerous. It must be nice to be such a know it all, eh? I figured that it would bring out some of the idiots here when I posted the video. It's just so easy to be a dick online these days, isn't it?

Boggs