Expanded World Class

On Oct 4, 12:40 am, toad wrote:
On Oct 3, 7:12 pm, wrote:
snip

* suitable for clubs, private owners & early solo pilots.

Bad idea to require suitability for early solo pilot. This led to
unneeded "dumbing down" of the design. Specific features such as the
nose wheel and non-retractable landing gear. It also leads to
sacrificing performance for easier handling.

That would suggest to me also ruling out it being suitable for clubs,
though the SZD Junior has the fixed wheel but doesn't have a nose
wheel.


I think that the design point to aim for is a glider that a newly
licensed pilot, who has done some XC in a club glider and wants a
glider to fly, would find roughly comparable to a Grob 102, Std
Cirrus, LS4.

Mention of a Grob reminds me that being easy to rig is a very useful
attribute as well. What I mean is that it doesn't require people with
the size & strength of a gorilla - it should be a reasonably easy rig
for two average women, without any fancy rigging aids.

snip

The World Class is a dead end, replaced by the highly successful Club
Class:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glider_...ses#Club_Class

The FAI should just let it quietly die. Back in 1989 there were no old
plastic gliders to populate what could be a "club class" and so a low-
cost "entry-level" design made sense, but nearly twenty years on
there's just no point in flying such a compromised aircraft as the
PW5. For a fraction of the cost of a new one, you can just pick up a
used Cirrus, Grob or Libelle and get a glider with considerably better
performance, and compete in the Club Class if you want to.


Dan

On Oct 4, 3:37 am, Cats wrote:
Mention of a Grob reminds me that being easy to rig is a very useful
attribute as well. What I mean is that it doesn't require people with
the size & strength of a gorilla - it should be a reasonably easy rig
for two average women, without any fancy rigging aids.

snip

As a Grob owner, I'll make the claim that they're not too hard to
rig. If you know how !

Todd

On Oct 4, 5:38 am, Dan G wrote:
The World Class is a dead end, replaced by the highly successful Club
Class:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glider_...ses#Club_Class

The FAI should just let it quietly die. Back in 1989 there were no old
plastic gliders to populate what could be a "club class" and so a low-
cost "entry-level" design made sense, but nearly twenty years on
there's just no point in flying such a compromised aircraft as the
PW5. For a fraction of the cost of a new one, you can just pick up a
used Cirrus, Grob or Libelle and get a glider with considerably better
performance, and compete in the Club Class if you want to.

Dan

The PW5 as a world class glider is dead and will fade away. But a
cheaper one-design class is still a good idea. It might not ever
happen, but it's a good idea.

Todd

On Oct 4, 6:58 am, toad wrote:
On Oct 4, 5:38 am, Dan G wrote:

The World Class is a dead end, replaced by the highly successful Club
Class:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glider_...ses#Club_Class

The FAI should just let it quietly die. Back in 1989 there were no old
plastic gliders to populate what could be a "club class" and so a low-
cost "entry-level" design made sense, but nearly twenty years on
there's just no point in flying such a compromised aircraft as the
PW5. For a fraction of the cost of a new one, you can just pick up a
used Cirrus, Grob or Libelle and get a glider with considerably better
performance, and compete in the Club Class if you want to.

Dan

The PW5 as a world class glider is dead and will fade away. But a
cheaper one-design class is still a good idea. It might not ever
happen, but it's a good idea.

Todd

"Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."

I know most of you want soaring to grow and know that the rising cost
of gliders threaten the sport. Don't you wonder why a few people are
trying to kill World Class? Perhaps these are some of the reasons:

Diminished impact. - A few pilots want to impress others with their
terrific flight. They may not want to share the glory with a person
flying a ship costing a fraction of what they spent. Recent World
records speak volumes about the PW 5's suitability for long tasks,
even over difficult terrain. We are just beginning to see what the
ship can do. Does the growing list of people who frequently fly 300K
or better threaten the justifications for spending huge sums of money
on other glass ships?

Not part of a close group- Even at contest, where protests abound, the
PW 5 group is enjoying themselves. The only thing that is not easy to
do with a PW 5 is come up with excuses for losing in a contest. It is
the pilot not the plane.

Safety. This sturdy, high winged, easy to fly ship makes land-outs
easy. A very ill-informed contributor to this group suggested that a
PW 5 couldn't deal with strong lift. I have flown in wave and in
thermals in Cal. City, Minden, and Parowan with confidence in a well-
tested design.

Makes the "club" less exclusive - I became a cross-county pilot and
fly in contests because I fly a ship I can afford. Modest initial
cost, inexpensive insurance, zero maintenance - all contribute to my
being able to fly all over the country.

I don't need to explain to you that one class design is the way to
build our sport. Look at one design sailboats. I have never heard a
J Boat owner berate a Sunfish enthusiast. Maybe it's because he/she
learned to sail in that boat. If the World Class loses its one design
status, we will be back to people buying their way into the winner's
circle.

Most of you don't feel threatened by the World Class glider. Why not
support the ideals that brought World Class into existence?

toad wrote:

Bad idea to require suitability for early solo pilot. This led to
unneeded "dumbing down" of the design. Specific features such as the
nose wheel and non-retractable landing gear. It also leads to
sacrificing performance for easier handling.

Time to update your knowledge to at least the 1980s, when the LS4,
Discus, and other gliders showed you don't have to sacrifice performance
to have a glider with wonderful, forgiving handling.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Oct 4, 11:12 am, Vsoars wrote:
On Oct 4, 6:58 am, toad wrote:



On Oct 4, 5:38 am, Dan G wrote:

The World Class is a dead end, replaced by the highly successful Club
Class:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glider_...ses#Club_Class

The FAI should just let it quietly die. Back in 1989 there were no old
plastic gliders to populate what could be a "club class" and so a low-
cost "entry-level" design made sense, but nearly twenty years on
there's just no point in flying such a compromised aircraft as the
PW5. For a fraction of the cost of a new one, you can just pick up a
used Cirrus, Grob or Libelle and get a glider with considerably better
performance, and compete in the Club Class if you want to.

Dan

The PW5 as a world class glider is dead and will fade away. But a
cheaper one-design class is still a good idea. It might not ever
happen, but it's a good idea.

Todd

"Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."

I know most of you want soaring to grow and know that the rising cost
of gliders threaten the sport. Don't you wonder why a few people are
trying to kill World Class? Perhaps these are some of the reasons:

Diminished impact. - A few pilots want to impress others with their
terrific flight. They may not want to share the glory with a person
flying a ship costing a fraction of what they spent. Recent World
records speak volumes about the PW 5's suitability for long tasks,
even over difficult terrain. We are just beginning to see what the
ship can do. Does the growing list of people who frequently fly 300K
or better threaten the justifications for spending huge sums of money
on other glass ships?

Not part of a close group- Even at contest, where protests abound, the
PW 5 group is enjoying themselves. The only thing that is not easy to
do with a PW 5 is come up with excuses for losing in a contest. It is
the pilot not the plane.

Safety. This sturdy, high winged, easy to fly ship makes land-outs
easy. A very ill-informed contributor to this group suggested that a
PW 5 couldn't deal with strong lift. I have flown in wave and in
thermals in Cal. City, Minden, and Parowan with confidence in a well-
tested design.

Makes the "club" less exclusive - I became a cross-county pilot and
fly in contests because I fly a ship I can afford. Modest initial
cost, inexpensive insurance, zero maintenance - all contribute to my
being able to fly all over the country.

I don't need to explain to you that one class design is the way to
build our sport. Look at one design sailboats. I have never heard a
J Boat owner berate a Sunfish enthusiast. Maybe it's because he/she
learned to sail in that boat. If the World Class loses its one design
status, we will be back to people buying their way into the winner's
circle.

Most of you don't feel threatened by the World Class glider. Why not
support the ideals that brought World Class into existence?

I don't know if this is directed at me, but I'll respond anyway.

I support most of the ideals of the World Class concept, except for
the "early solo" pilots part. But the specific design criteria that
resulted in the PW5's low performance is what killed the class, not
disdain from other pilots. When I've been to contests where there was
a PW5 flying, they did not seem to be having much fun, because they
landed out all the damn time.

People keep comparing to sailboat one design racing, but there is a
big difference between sailing a Sunfish in weak conditions and flying
a PW5 in weak conditions, the PW5 lands out and the Sunfish does NOT
sink. Avoiding landing out in weak conditions is why a minimum of
performance is needed.

The only way I can support the "World class" is to buy one myself or
with a club. But before I did this, the glider has to have enough
performance that I would have fun. So I express what I think should
be changed to allow this to happen. This doesn't mean that I am
threatened, but I feel the concept has not been well executed.

Todd Smith
Grob 102
3S

On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 15:12:17 -0000, Vsoars wrote:


I know most of you want soaring to grow and know that the rising cost
of gliders threaten the sport. Don't you wonder why a few people are
trying to kill World Class? Perhaps these are some of the reasons:

None is trying to kill the World class.
In fact, by choosing the PW-5 it commited suicide.

The market has decided. Face it - there are simply very few people
who are excited by flying a PW-5.


Diminished impact. - A few pilots want to impress others with their
terrific flight. They may not want to share the glory with a person
flying a ship costing a fraction of what they spent.

Sharing the glory is not part of the problem.
The problem is that extremely few pilots love to spend big $$$ on a
glider whose performance is inferior to even basic two-seat trainers,
not to mention 1st-generation glass gliders like Libelle, ASW-15 et
cetera that can be bought for one third of the price for PW-5 - and
which outperform the poor PW-5 hands-down.


Recent World
records speak volumes about the PW 5's suitability for long tasks,
even over difficult terrain. We are just beginning to see what the
ship can do.

Depends on the definition of a "long task". The PW-5 offers the same
performance as an ancient Ka-6E - but today's pilots standards are way
higher.


I don't need to explain to you that one class design is the way to
build our sport. Look at one design sailboats. I have never heard a
J Boat owner berate a Sunfish enthusiast. Maybe it's because he/she
learned to sail in that boat. If the World Class loses its one design
status, we will be back to people buying their way into the winner's
circle.

There's one difference though: People actually BUY one-design-class
boats in significant numbers.


Most of you don't feel threatened by the World Class glider. Why not
support the ideals that brought World Class into existence?

Why not simply buy a much cheaper glider that offers far better
perfomance and have fun flying Club Class or Sports Class contests?


Bye
Andreas

On Oct 4, 12:35 pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
toad wrote:
Bad idea to require suitability for early solo pilot. This led to
unneeded "dumbing down" of the design. Specific features such as the
nose wheel and non-retractable landing gear. It also leads to
sacrificing performance for easier handling.

Time to update your knowledge to at least the 1980s, when the LS4,
Discus, and other gliders showed you don't have to sacrifice performance
to have a glider with wonderful, forgiving handling.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

Then why doesn't the PW5 have better performance ?

Trade offs between handling and performance might be:
span, easier handling with lower span.
wing loading, high for performance, low for safety, happy medium ?
airfoil and twist for better performance or stall ?
fixed gear vs retract.
high wing for safety vs lower drag mid wing ?

All of these items can be optimized one way or the other. The LS4/
Discus got a really good happy medium with both good handling and
performance. If the PW5 had near the performance of either of these
gliders, I would own a PW5, but the PW5 does not.

Todd

What killed the World Class was the World Class.
When the PW5 was awarded the World Class against a lot of opposition to the
design the proponents of the PW5 sat back fielding criticism and smugly
snubbed the others even after it was well apparent that few were going to
get on their band wagon.
Others that contended for the bid to be the world class glider and their
followers were shut out and left with no place to compete. There were other
good design entrants (most thought better than the committee picked PW5) and
rumors of unfair politics deciding on the PW5 clouded the class.
How the PW5 was picked over the other designs remains a topic of some
controversy but it was and it failed to gather the interest of the masses
(it really is homely) but there were however many other gliders that were in
contention for the title sold that already meet much the original design
criteria. If these models were all lumped together with the existing PW5
gliders the potential is there for a successful competition class to yet
emerge.... Call it World Class or whatever you like but stick with the
gliders already produced and there is no need to go through the process
another time only to end up with the same dismal results.
There is no need to start including Grob Astirs, Cirrus, LS4 and the likes
of these since they already fit nicely into the Club Class (The USA needs
also to finally adopt the rest of the worlds "Club Class" and "Racing Class"
rather than continuing to disguise Ventus 2's and ASW27's and the likes as
"Sports class" gliders)and there is no reason to start looking for a new
alternative "World Class" design... Simply include the L-33's, SZD solo,
Russia in with the PW5's and let them fight it out in a fair and balanced
contest.....choose your weapon and go into battle..... low cost, lower
performance racing.....easy enough.
tim

--
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com
,
"Ian Cant" wrote in message
...
Soon we will see a very good 13m glider ....for
$120,000.-only.
And the happy owner will be a World Class Champion.
Was that an original idea behind the World Class?

If I recall correctly, the major aim of the World Class
concept was to make competition soaring more accessible
by keeping the cost down. The lower performance level
and the single-design concepts arose from this aim
[one design to allow mass production and the savings
therefrom]. Unfortunately the masses did not buy the
PW-5.

Perhaps a reasonable class could be built from all
the 13m and below sailplanes that are now around, typically
with 30 or 35:1 L/Ds and easier retrieve characteristics
than bigger ships. A set of rules can be built around
the existing designs without denying entry to newer
and better designs. Contrary to advertised beliefs,
30:1 is plenty for X-C [20:1 is plenty for the 1-26
guys].

But how do we keep the cost under control ? Well,
my only semi-facetious suggestion would be to have
a rule that the top three in any National-level contest
have to offer their ships, fully equipped as flown,
for sale at a fixed price immediately afterwards.
Take $40,000 as a random number. Will anyone really
want to buy a championship with a $60,000 ship if he
has to sell it for $40,000 afterwards ? It would be
snapped up. But the $20,000 ship that wins would probably
not be sellable at $40,000 and the owner could keep
it to fly another day.

As a reference point, the Sparrowhawk is perhaps the
highest performance 13m ship around, and I believe
it still sells for below $40,000. And my aging Russia
would be competitive; it cost me $19,000 new a few
years ago; even with a trailer and flight recorder
and oxygen etc and CA sales tax, it still came in at
well below $25,000.

It could be done. With 60 or so Russias, maybe 50
PW-5s, a growing number of Sparrowhawks and a sprinkling
of Apis and Silents we should have a viable nucleus
of a fleet. And if it works, more people may be enticed
to join in affordable competive soaring.

Ian