How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 10:43:14 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
One big glaring issue I see in regards to encouraging XC is that a short cross country flight is not a requirement for earning a glider private rating (or a commercial rating for that matter)?

If we let students earn their "glider rating" purely by flying within gliding range of the airport, we unsurprisingly get a large portion of "rated" glider pilots who become very comfortable not venturing outside of gliding range of the airport. This is really no surprise, is it?

"Train how you fight, fight how you train..."

If students (and their instructors), as part of their training, never have to truly think about, plan or execute XC skills are we not setting them up for XC failure? More importantly, our CFIGs can happily exists as CFIGs without any skill, experience or desire for cross country flight! You can get a CFIG rating and keep it today without ever having ventured outside of "gliding range" of the airport! In fact, many CFIGs openly discourage XC flight as irresponsible, etc. Land outs are bad...mmm-Kay! The same goes for most FAA glider "examiners(?)." This is incredible to me and probably a little frustrating to many of us.

Many (most?, but not all!) glider "instructors" simply never learn XC skills and therefore never really teach it (or meaningfully encourage it). They often don't have a great LOVE for cross country. They often don't understand it. Many see glider flight close to the airport as normal and how it "should" be. Many are not passionate about moving their students towards cross country. Obviously, these glider "instructors" are not the greatest "spark-plugs" for preparing new glider pilots to get into the more advanced levels of the sport of soaring (XC). In certain cases they are "allowed" to actively discourage developing cross country skills (that's dangerous, etc). They know who they are.

This broken dynamic is a major problem that we face with soaring today. It is at least part of the reason why we are seeing fewer new pilots joining us on cross country's.

If I was "king" ;-) I would fundamentally change this FAA glider instruction dynamic.

1) Students would have to plan for and complete a short 50km cross country as part of the flight training process. Instructors would have to truly teach this XC skill, and help the student practice it! This short XC would be a required element. The student would not have to do this solo. Waivers for instruction in difficult terrain (why get flight training here?) or poor weather (why get glider training in the winter?) would be allowed, but in general XC would be an important highlight of the glider flight training experience (vs something that is just glanced over). Just like the long cross country is a highlight of a private power rating, the XC element of the glider rating would be the most memorable (and inspirational) for the student! If I remember correctly the long cross country (power) is done both with an instructor and solo! Why is this short XC not at least a requirement with the instructor with gliders? It makes no sense to me. Even a 20 km cross country would be better than nothing.

2) CFIGs would need to compete a 100km cross country (with a student or solo) every 2 years to remain current. This would need to be verified like a silver badge is today with witnesses, etc. Period! No exceptions. You either love the sport of soaring (XC) and are competent at it OR you are not. We need CFIGs to be ambassadors for cross country soaring and truly love it. Don't tell me...SHOW ME! Prove it.

3) FAA examiners would also need to have a 100km cross country every 2 years. They need to be able to evaluate the students ability to understand cross country soaring in the oral examination. Without some minimum cross country experience themselves, this is a total pushover.

I'll retreat to my bunker for the fallout this post will create! ;-). But I have to say we need some changes in this area of the sport.

Sean

It's a really good thing you are not king.
Cross country training is good to have but is not a must to make good, safe pilots. That said, training should(must) be done in a way that teaches the skills and judgement needed to advance to cross country. I tell my students that I'm teaching them to be able to land in fields because they may well do it one day.
UH

Sean said: Many (most?, but not all!) glider "instructors" simply never learn XC skills and therefore never really teach it (or meaningfully encourage it).

I don't know to what extent this is true. I suspect many have some XC experience even if they don't practice it regularly, in particular because they enjoy and spend most of their cockpit time instructing.

That said, my father was always a very popular instructor at our club when I was growing up in part, I believe, because he taught soaring whenever possible, not just gliding. I enjoyed this popular demand during the brief years when I did some instructing, as well. The best way to learn for most is hands-on, either dual or lead-follow.

While I've never encountered an instructor who spoke against XC or competition per se, I did run across a fellow who was seeking a signoff for his CFI-G check ride. We got off tow on a dismal day and stumbled into a weak thermal. "Hey," I said, surprised, "Let's see if we can work this back up."

His voice was uncertain as he confessed he really didn't know how. He was a perfectly adequate pilot in every other respect and had been flying at our club for years, although (in retrospect), mostly rides and end-of-the-day smooth air flights.

It's been way too long since I took a written test so I don't know how many questions relate to soaring or XC but I suspect most examiners don't test for those skills. Getting that changed sounds like an imposing obstacle that will not easily be surmounted. Better to work within the model so ably proven by Hank Nixon, Erik Mann/Aero Club Albatross, Harris Hill Soaring, and others in this country. If your club/organization has the equipment and the intent but you're not getting comparable results, maybe a change in tactics is in order. I've seen the thriving XC/competition cultures at Blairstown/ACA and Valley Soaring up close and they work.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 10:43:14 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
One big glaring issue I see in regards to encouraging XC is that a short cross country flight is not a requirement for earning a glider private rating (or a commercial rating for that matter)?

If we let students earn their "glider rating" purely by flying within gliding range of the airport, we unsurprisingly get a large portion of "rated" glider pilots who become very comfortable not venturing outside of gliding range of the airport. This is really no surprise, is it?

"Train how you fight, fight how you train..."

If students (and their instructors), as part of their training, never have to truly think about, plan or execute XC skills are we not setting them up for XC failure? More importantly, our CFIGs can happily exists as CFIGs without any skill, experience or desire for cross country flight! You can get a CFIG rating and keep it today without ever having ventured outside of "gliding range" of the airport! In fact, many CFIGs openly discourage XC flight as irresponsible, etc. Land outs are bad...mmm-Kay! The same goes for most FAA glider "examiners(?)." This is incredible to me and probably a little frustrating to many of us.

Many (most?, but not all!) glider "instructors" simply never learn XC skills and therefore never really teach it (or meaningfully encourage it). They often don't have a great LOVE for cross country. They often don't understand it. Many see glider flight close to the airport as normal and how it "should" be. Many are not passionate about moving their students towards cross country. Obviously, these glider "instructors" are not the greatest "spark-plugs" for preparing new glider pilots to get into the more advanced levels of the sport of soaring (XC). In certain cases they are "allowed" to actively discourage developing cross country skills (that's dangerous, etc). They know who they are.

This broken dynamic is a major problem that we face with soaring today. It is at least part of the reason why we are seeing fewer new pilots joining us on cross country's.

If I was "king" ;-) I would fundamentally change this FAA glider instruction dynamic.

1) Students would have to plan for and complete a short 50km cross country as part of the flight training process. Instructors would have to truly teach this XC skill, and help the student practice it! This short XC would be a required element. The student would not have to do this solo. Waivers for instruction in difficult terrain (why get flight training here?) or poor weather (why get glider training in the winter?) would be allowed, but in general XC would be an important highlight of the glider flight training experience (vs something that is just glanced over). Just like the long cross country is a highlight of a private power rating, the XC element of the glider rating would be the most memorable (and inspirational) for the student! If I remember correctly the long cross country (power) is done both with an instructor and solo! Why is this short XC not at least a requirement with the instructor with gliders? It makes no sense to me. Even a 20 km cross country would be better than nothing.

2) CFIGs would need to compete a 100km cross country (with a student or solo) every 2 years to remain current. This would need to be verified like a silver badge is today with witnesses, etc. Period! No exceptions. You either love the sport of soaring (XC) and are competent at it OR you are not. We need CFIGs to be ambassadors for cross country soaring and truly love it. Don't tell me...SHOW ME! Prove it.

3) FAA examiners would also need to have a 100km cross country every 2 years. They need to be able to evaluate the students ability to understand cross country soaring in the oral examination. Without some minimum cross country experience themselves, this is a total pushover.

I'll retreat to my bunker for the fallout this post will create! ;-). But I have to say we need some changes in this area of the sport.

Sean

True...... at least in our group, most CFIG's have done some cross country in gliders. Some CFIG's have even competed (one of our current ones is a past 15M nationals winner!).

When I did my initial CFIG process, I was "doing poorly" in the oral with the FAA examiner, UNTIL he asked me my background. Since I was looking to "give back to soaring" and NOT "add a rating" (along with badge work & contest flying), he worked with me. He had done some soaring in the past.
Yes, I became a CFIG for 8 years.

Later on, a club member (a FAA DE) and I went flying in his 2 place glass. I wanted to get a biennial as well as a current checkout in his ship. When we had covered "what was required", he stated, "What do you want to do now?". We went cross country, it was simple for me, new to him.
I think it helped open his eyes towards what was possible, makes him a better DE in the long run.

Why do you have to wait for the FAA to mandate it? Can't clubs implement a similar policy of their own accord?

I can understand a commercial organisation employing any qualified instructor regardless of actual soaring experience, they're not interested in renting gliders for solo cross country. If gliding clubs want to grow their membership they need to offer goals & challenges beyond local soaring, so why on earth would they let instructors that don't believe in cross country flying anywhere near student pilots? At the very least restrict them to basic/early instruction only.

Cross country gliding should be seen as a natural progression - learning to fly, learning to soar, learning to fly cross country. An instructor that can't do all of those is only half an instructor.

Chip's story of an instructor who "confessed he really didn't know how" is truly jaw dropping. He might as well have confessed that he didn't really know how to land.

Ed


On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 3:43:14 PM UTC+1, Sean Fidler wrote:
One big glaring issue I see in regards to encouraging XC is that a short cross country flight is not a requirement for earning a glider private rating (or a commercial rating for that matter)?

If we let students earn their "glider rating" purely by flying within gliding range of the airport, we unsurprisingly get a large portion of "rated" glider pilots who become very comfortable not venturing outside of gliding range of the airport. This is really no surprise, is it?

"Train how you fight, fight how you train..."

If students (and their instructors), as part of their training, never have to truly think about, plan or execute XC skills are we not setting them up for XC failure? More importantly, our CFIGs can happily exists as CFIGs without any skill, experience or desire for cross country flight! You can get a CFIG rating and keep it today without ever having ventured outside of "gliding range" of the airport! In fact, many CFIGs openly discourage XC flight as irresponsible, etc. Land outs are bad...mmm-Kay! The same goes for most FAA glider "examiners(?)." This is incredible to me and probably a little frustrating to many of us.

Many (most?, but not all!) glider "instructors" simply never learn XC skills and therefore never really teach it (or meaningfully encourage it). They often don't have a great LOVE for cross country. They often don't understand it. Many see glider flight close to the airport as normal and how it "should" be. Many are not passionate about moving their students towards cross country. Obviously, these glider "instructors" are not the greatest "spark-plugs" for preparing new glider pilots to get into the more advanced levels of the sport of soaring (XC). In certain cases they are "allowed" to actively discourage developing cross country skills (that's dangerous, etc). They know who they are.

This broken dynamic is a major problem that we face with soaring today. It is at least part of the reason why we are seeing fewer new pilots joining us on cross country's.

If I was "king" ;-) I would fundamentally change this FAA glider instruction dynamic.

1) Students would have to plan for and complete a short 50km cross country as part of the flight training process. Instructors would have to truly teach this XC skill, and help the student practice it! This short XC would be a required element. The student would not have to do this solo. Waivers for instruction in difficult terrain (why get flight training here?) or poor weather (why get glider training in the winter?) would be allowed, but in general XC would be an important highlight of the glider flight training experience (vs something that is just glanced over). Just like the long cross country is a highlight of a private power rating, the XC element of the glider rating would be the most memorable (and inspirational) for the student! If I remember correctly the long cross country (power) is done both with an instructor and solo! Why is this short XC not at least a requirement with the instructor with gliders? It makes no sense to me. Even a 20 km cross country would be better than nothing.

2) CFIGs would need to compete a 100km cross country (with a student or solo) every 2 years to remain current. This would need to be verified like a silver badge is today with witnesses, etc. Period! No exceptions. You either love the sport of soaring (XC) and are competent at it OR you are not. We need CFIGs to be ambassadors for cross country soaring and truly love it. Don't tell me...SHOW ME! Prove it.

3) FAA examiners would also need to have a 100km cross country every 2 years. They need to be able to evaluate the students ability to understand cross country soaring in the oral examination. Without some minimum cross country experience themselves, this is a total pushover.

I'll retreat to my bunker for the fallout this post will create! ;-). But I have to say we need some changes in this area of the sport.

Sean

On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 6:33:43 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Why do you have to wait for the FAA to mandate it? Can't clubs implement a similar policy of their own accord?

I can understand a commercial organisation employing any qualified instructor regardless of actual soaring experience, they're not interested in renting gliders for solo cross country.

True. Many instructors at commercial operation don't have XC qualifications. Unfortunately, commercial operations train more than 80% of US glider pilots simply because they are bigger and operate more days a year than clubs. To do much good, I think XC requirements have to be in the regulations.

On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 9:43:14 AM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
One big glaring issue I see in regards to encouraging XC is that a short cross country flight is not a requirement for earning a glider private rating (or a commercial rating for that matter)?

If we let students earn their "glider rating" purely by flying within gliding range of the airport, we unsurprisingly get a large portion of "rated" glider pilots who become very comfortable not venturing outside of gliding range of the airport. This is really no surprise, is it?

"Train how you fight, fight how you train..."

If students (and their instructors), as part of their training, never have to truly think about, plan or execute XC skills are we not setting them up for XC failure? More importantly, our CFIGs can happily exists as CFIGs without any skill, experience or desire for cross country flight! You can get a CFIG rating and keep it today without ever having ventured outside of "gliding range" of the airport! In fact, many CFIGs openly discourage XC flight as irresponsible, etc. Land outs are bad...mmm-Kay! The same goes for most FAA glider "examiners(?)." This is incredible to me and probably a little frustrating to many of us.

Many (most?, but not all!) glider "instructors" simply never learn XC skills and therefore never really teach it (or meaningfully encourage it). They often don't have a great LOVE for cross country. They often don't understand it. Many see glider flight close to the airport as normal and how it "should" be. Many are not passionate about moving their students towards cross country. Obviously, these glider "instructors" are not the greatest "spark-plugs" for preparing new glider pilots to get into the more advanced levels of the sport of soaring (XC). In certain cases they are "allowed" to actively discourage developing cross country skills (that's dangerous, etc). They know who they are.

This broken dynamic is a major problem that we face with soaring today. It is at least part of the reason why we are seeing fewer new pilots joining us on cross country's.

If I was "king" ;-) I would fundamentally change this FAA glider instruction dynamic.

1) Students would have to plan for and complete a short 50km cross country as part of the flight training process. Instructors would have to truly teach this XC skill, and help the student practice it! This short XC would be a required element. The student would not have to do this solo. Waivers for instruction in difficult terrain (why get flight training here?) or poor weather (why get glider training in the winter?) would be allowed, but in general XC would be an important highlight of the glider flight training experience (vs something that is just glanced over). Just like the long cross country is a highlight of a private power rating, the XC element of the glider rating would be the most memorable (and inspirational) for the student! If I remember correctly the long cross country (power) is done both with an instructor and solo! Why is this short XC not at least a requirement with the instructor with gliders? It makes no sense to me. Even a 20 km cross country would be better than nothing.

2) CFIGs would need to compete a 100km cross country (with a student or solo) every 2 years to remain current. This would need to be verified like a silver badge is today with witnesses, etc. Period! No exceptions. You either love the sport of soaring (XC) and are competent at it OR you are not. We need CFIGs to be ambassadors for cross country soaring and truly love it. Don't tell me...SHOW ME! Prove it.

3) FAA examiners would also need to have a 100km cross country every 2 years. They need to be able to evaluate the students ability to understand cross country soaring in the oral examination. Without some minimum cross country experience themselves, this is a total pushover.

I'll retreat to my bunker for the fallout this post will create! ;-). But I have to say we need some changes in this area of the sport.

Sean

Sean,
While I fully agree with you regarding making x-country training a part of the instruction toward a private rating... That's what it's still like in Germany, I had to do my 50 km Überlandflug as part of my license there back in 1981 (and in an old Ka 8 to boot). However, when I asked for a club glider to go x-country on a regular basis I encountered all kinds of obstacles. I overcame those but still found appallingly few other club members interested in joining me.
Having the 50-100 km x-country experience does not seem to affect many pilots' view of doing it on a regular basis. As was said here before, you have to be motivated deep inside. I found that reading about long flights did that for me, today I guess YouTube would get new pilots hooked.
Herb

Make the SSA Bronze Badge and Silver Distance leg an FAR requirement for the Sport and Private Pilot Glider Certificates. These are relatively easy to do and makes you a better soaring pilot.

You have a cross-country requirement for the Private Certificate in Airplanes, and there are many more of those flying around. Why not for Gliders?

People fear what they don't have experiences in. When you've done it to get the Certificate, it becomes a non-issue, and puts you well on the way to competition or just doing the cross-country for yourself.

You want to promote soaring by making it harder to get a pilot's certificate? How many pilots are you going to lose because weather and club glider availability never line up? It is a gliding license that takes gliding skills, soaring is simply a sport you first need a gliding license to partake in. Get people in gliders, if they come round again get them a glider license then ask what their goals are and give them a push if needed.
On Sunday, August 23, 2015 at 9:21:53 PM UTC-4, N97MT wrote:
Make the SSA Bronze Badge and Silver Distance leg an FAR requirement for the Sport and Private Pilot Glider Certificates. These are relatively easy to do and makes you a better soaring pilot.

You have a cross-country requirement for the Private Certificate in Airplanes, and there are many more of those flying around. Why not for Gliders?

People fear what they don't have experiences in. When you've done it to get the Certificate, it becomes a non-issue, and puts you well on the way to competition or just doing the cross-country for yourself.

On Monday, August 24, 2015 at 9:46:13 PM UTC-4, GB wrote:
You want to promote soaring by making it harder to get a pilot's certificate? How many pilots are you going to lose because weather and club glider availability never line up? It is a gliding license that takes gliding skills, soaring is simply a sport you first need a gliding license to partake in. Get people in gliders, if they come round again get them a glider license then ask what their goals are and give them a push if needed.

Very well said. The PP certificate is a license to continue to learn and to allow the pilot to take a friend.
My experience is that the areas of weakness in the existing training and licensing process do not include the lack of cross country experience. A pilot can be a long term, safe, satisfied person without flying cross country. for those that do experience XC and master it, it is even better.
From someone who REALLY enjoys XC and teaches it actively.
UH

On Tuesday, August 25, 2015 at 8:42:02 AM UTC-4, wrote:
A pilot can be a long term, safe, satisfied person without flying cross country.

Those pilots pay dues, buy tows and volunteer time. They stick around long enough to progress to XC if that path is reasonably open and they want to take it.