Scared of mid-airs

Y'All,
Getting there late again. Every time I find someone has read my site talk
about traffic avoidance by selected altitudes and checkpoint avoidance I
find that I have increased my risk of a mid-air.

I have found a way to prove the validity of flying at selected altitudes.

Fly at 2750 feet AGL and watch the number of aircraft that pass above and
below you. Problem is that pretty soon everyone will be doing it and coming
at you from any direction.

Reasons not to worry are statistically great but one factor not mentioned in
this thread is that of the people involved in mid-air accidents 50% are
likely
to become survivors. Aside from the airport vicinity hazards, you must
listen and use the radio to wake up those who are coming at your rear with a
greater airspeed.
Gene Whitt

On Wed, 10 May 2006 22:20:58 -0000, Jim Logajan
wrote:

"Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote:
I've been flying all over the
world and much of it, about 13000 hours, crop dusting.

I could see running into tall scarecrows, birds, or the occasional semi-
trailer Magnum Oil truck while you try to kill Cary Grant, but I can't see
you encountering many other planes at the low altitudes you probably spent
all that time flying. :-)

You do generally have to pull up to make the turns and that puts you
into Piper Cub territory.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

By the way, are you the pilot flying this plane:
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3...1600/NBN12.jpg

;-)

"Frode Berg" wrote in message
news
OK.

I will not speak my mind on this forum if this is what happens.

Thanks to all the insightful posts by all you other people!

I just needed to put some statistics into perspective.
After all, I witnessed a mid air right before starting my PPL.

However, tha last week I've flown a few times, and haven't thought much
about it anymore.

I guess mr Ol Shy here is flying around his farm in the middle of nowhere
at 300 feet in his ultralight.

I only have 250 hours total, and have had 3 close encounters. Not really
"near misses" apart from one of them, but they were still to me
uncomfortably close, so you claiming 23.000 hours with none....?
Hmmm...makes you wonder...

Frode


Nope. Old Shy, like I did, started flying about fifty years ago when you
learned to fly by looking out the windows. As a result looking out the
windows becomes a habit when flying. As a result you can see the other
traffic and "near misses" just don't happen very darned often. I have also
been flying about fifty some odd years all over the country includeing some
years flying charters in the NYC area ( yes, it was busy there forty years
ago also ) . In that time I have had two near misses. Both were high
performance turboprops climbing up beneath me on my same course where I had
a hard time seeing them and they were so busy fiddleing with radios and
instruments that neither of them was paying any attention to where they were
going until they looked up and saw my belly filling their windshield.

The other common spot for midairs is short final. You get a high wing on a
straight in approach and a low wing in a tight steep pattern and the low
wing guy can land on top of the high winger. Be especially vigilant around
airports. That is where airplanes often are! :-) Avoid straight in
approachs and always roll level for a short spell on base and look to the
incoming courseline. Be sure to look high and low because you never know
what kind of a glideslope they might be using.

It has worked well for me.

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

The closest near miss I've ever had was on final approach
into Wichita [ICT] while giving dual to a student pilot. We
were about number 5 or 6 in the pattern for 19R flying a
Beech Sundowner N18873. These are low-wing with fair
dihedral [for those not familiar]. We were told to extend
downwind by the tower to allow several departures and an
arrival into the pattern. The tower called our base about 4
miles north of the airport. One about a mile final I told
my student that he needed to compensate for the drift as the
wind was changing. I suggested a slip to get aligned and he
dropped the right wing. As is my practice and habit, I
looked in that direction and saw a Cessna 150 about 20 feet
off our wing and just slightly below our altitude. I took
the plane and began a miss and advised the tower. I asked
about the traffic and they told me about the plane I was
following 1/4-1/2 mile ahead I told him about the C150.
Turned out he was to follow us and about 3 miles or so on
downwind his instructor had him turn base. He never saw us
and the tower didn't see the convergence. He turned onto a
collision course and remained under our wing all the way on
base and turning final. I was under radar control and was
probably a little lax, certainly the tower was lax and the
pilots in the C150 had me at 12 O'clock for quite a while
and never saw us. They should have reported to the tower
that they didn't have us and that they were turning base
[w/o clearance].
The pilot had blue eyes and never looked left. The rivets
on a C150 are real big.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P
--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.



"Highflyer" wrote in message
...
|
| "Frode Berg" wrote in message
| news | OK.
|
| I will not speak my mind on this forum if this is what
happens.
|
| Thanks to all the insightful posts by all you other
people!
|
| I just needed to put some statistics into perspective.
| After all, I witnessed a mid air right before starting
my PPL.
|
| However, tha last week I've flown a few times, and
haven't thought much
| about it anymore.
|
| I guess mr Ol Shy here is flying around his farm in the
middle of nowhere
| at 300 feet in his ultralight.
|
| I only have 250 hours total, and have had 3 close
encounters. Not really
| "near misses" apart from one of them, but they were
still to me
| uncomfortably close, so you claiming 23.000 hours with
none....?
| Hmmm...makes you wonder...
|
| Frode
|
|
| Nope. Old Shy, like I did, started flying about fifty
years ago when you
| learned to fly by looking out the windows. As a result
looking out the
| windows becomes a habit when flying. As a result you can
see the other
| traffic and "near misses" just don't happen very darned
often. I have also
| been flying about fifty some odd years all over the
country includeing some
| years flying charters in the NYC area ( yes, it was busy
there forty years
| ago also ) . In that time I have had two near misses.
Both were high
| performance turboprops climbing up beneath me on my same
course where I had
| a hard time seeing them and they were so busy fiddleing
with radios and
| instruments that neither of them was paying any attention
to where they were
| going until they looked up and saw my belly filling their
windshield.
|
| The other common spot for midairs is short final. You get
a high wing on a
| straight in approach and a low wing in a tight steep
pattern and the low
| wing guy can land on top of the high winger. Be
especially vigilant around
| airports. That is where airplanes often are! :-) Avoid
straight in
| approachs and always roll level for a short spell on base
and look to the
| incoming courseline. Be sure to look high and low because
you never know
| what kind of a glideslope they might be using.
|
| It has worked well for me.
|
| Highflyer
| Highflight Aviation Services
| Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )
|
|
|

My advice is this, do your best to see and be seen. Turn your lights
on even on good vis days. Give concise and regular position reports
when you are in non controlled airspace. If you are going to have a
mid air then its one of those unlikely times where you were looking in
the wrong place at the wrong time. I've only been flying about 60
hours and the one near miss I had was when there were only two aircraft
(NORDO aircraft notwithstanding) airborne in 30 square miles. We heard
the other guy broadcast his intentions and knew he was nearby but quick
thinking by my instructor averted disaster. We missed each other by a
fair margin but ATC still radioed us for a position report as they got
a radar alert.

The closest call I've had was returning solo from RDG (Reading, PA) to SMQ
(Somerset, NJ) in a borrowed school Cherokee 140. My flight took me right
through our local practice area at letdown, so I kept my eyes particularly
open. I entered a very extended 45 for 30, and continued to descend, all
the time watching for traffic. When I was a couple of miles out, I
announced that I was "over route 22 on the 45 for 30, Somerset", and by this
time, had descended to 1,200 feet. For some reason, I decided to go ahead
and descend to 1,100 feet (pattern altitude) at that point, which was what
my first instructor (a 79-year-old veteran) had always insisted on, but was
lower than what every other instructor I had after Lou wanted. When I got
to the "horse farm", our standard reporting point on the 45 for SMQ, I was
about to make a second call when one of the other school Cherokees announced
that he was "over the horse farm at 1,200 feet". While grabbing the mike,
I looked up very carefully and could still see no one. I immediately
announced that I was "directly over the horse farm at 1,100 feet, where are
you?" There was a pause, and he then announced that he was "climbing". I
had dropped down to 1,000 feet instinctively, but didn't have a lot of room
to maneuver, so I made my turn to downwind a bit lower than usual. Someone
at the FBO said "good job, guys". As I turned, I could finally see him
continuing on the 45 over the field. I landed and then waited for him to
park it, too. We figured out that we had probably been within 100 feet of
each other, one directly above the other, all the way from the practice
area. He'd heard my position report over 22, but because he couldn't see
me, decided that it must have been somewhere else (he was a student and we
share the CTAF with five or six airports in the area). He couldn't see me
because of his wing, and I couldn't see him because of the roof overhead.
Even leaning out over the glare shield and jamming my head against the side
window, in the seconds before my "where are you?" announcement, I could not
see him. Scary.

Ever since then I make some S turns before starting my decent. While doing
this I look both up and down for aircraft overhead and underneath.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:N9S9g.20788$ZW3.17105@dukeread04...
The closest near miss I've ever had was on final approach
into Wichita [ICT] while giving dual to a student pilot. We
were about number 5 or 6 in the pattern for 19R flying a
Beech Sundowner N18873. These are low-wing with fair
dihedral [for those not familiar]. We were told to extend
downwind by the tower to allow several departures and an
arrival into the pattern. The tower called our base about 4
miles north of the airport. One about a mile final I told
my student that he needed to compensate for the drift as the
wind was changing. I suggested a slip to get aligned and he
dropped the right wing. As is my practice and habit, I
looked in that direction and saw a Cessna 150 about 20 feet
off our wing and just slightly below our altitude. I took
the plane and began a miss and advised the tower. I asked
about the traffic and they told me about the plane I was
following 1/4-1/2 mile ahead I told him about the C150.
Turned out he was to follow us and about 3 miles or so on
downwind his instructor had him turn base. He never saw us
and the tower didn't see the convergence. He turned onto a
collision course and remained under our wing all the way on
base and turning final. I was under radar control and was
probably a little lax, certainly the tower was lax and the
pilots in the C150 had me at 12 O'clock for quite a while
and never saw us. They should have reported to the tower
that they didn't have us and that they were turning base
[w/o clearance].
The pilot had blue eyes and never looked left. The rivets
on a C150 are real big.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P
--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.



"Highflyer" wrote in message
...
|
| "Frode Berg" wrote in message
| news | OK.
|
| I will not speak my mind on this forum if this is what
happens.
|
| Thanks to all the insightful posts by all you other
people!
|
| I just needed to put some statistics into perspective.
| After all, I witnessed a mid air right before starting
my PPL.
|
| However, tha last week I've flown a few times, and
haven't thought much
| about it anymore.
|
| I guess mr Ol Shy here is flying around his farm in the
middle of nowhere
| at 300 feet in his ultralight.
|
| I only have 250 hours total, and have had 3 close
encounters. Not really
| "near misses" apart from one of them, but they were
still to me
| uncomfortably close, so you claiming 23.000 hours with
none....?
| Hmmm...makes you wonder...
|
| Frode
|
|
| Nope. Old Shy, like I did, started flying about fifty
years ago when you
| learned to fly by looking out the windows. As a result
looking out the
| windows becomes a habit when flying. As a result you can
see the other
| traffic and "near misses" just don't happen very darned
often. I have also
| been flying about fifty some odd years all over the
country includeing some
| years flying charters in the NYC area ( yes, it was busy
there forty years
| ago also ) . In that time I have had two near misses.
Both were high
| performance turboprops climbing up beneath me on my same
course where I had
| a hard time seeing them and they were so busy fiddleing
with radios and
| instruments that neither of them was paying any attention
to where they were
| going until they looked up and saw my belly filling their
windshield.
|
| The other common spot for midairs is short final. You get
a high wing on a
| straight in approach and a low wing in a tight steep
pattern and the low
| wing guy can land on top of the high winger. Be
especially vigilant around
| airports. That is where airplanes often are! :-) Avoid
straight in
| approachs and always roll level for a short spell on base
and look to the
| incoming courseline. Be sure to look high and low because
you never know
| what kind of a glideslope they might be using.
|
| It has worked well for me.
|
| Highflyer
| Highflight Aviation Services
| Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )
|
|
|

"Roger" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 May 2006 15:20:32 -0700, Mark Hansen
wrote:

I've had thee close encounters since 1963. The last was nearly 10
years ago when landing. It was nearly dark and an ultralight pulled
right in front of me just a few hundred feet off the ground when I was
on final. The two previous "close encounters" were back in the 60's
and within a couple of weeks of each other.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Most midair collisions seem to happen on a line aligned with the center of
the runway and on an approach course. The classic midair, and probably the
most common, is a low wing airplane making a steep final above a highwing
airplane making a shallow final. Once they turn final, neither can see the
other.

The best cure is a thorough scan of the airport traffic area when
approaching and a good look all around during all of the turns in the
pattern. I also STRONGLY recommend at least a short wings level portion on
the base leg when you can excercise the opportunity to thoroughly scan to
your right for aircraft on a straight in approach. Remember, they can be on
just about any approach slope from 2 degrees up to around 10 degrees. More
than 10 degrees and it is probably a space shuttle and you are landing on
the wrong runway! :-)

Always look for people 100 feet or so above or below the pattern altitude.
Also remember that the former "standard" pattern altitude was 800 feet AGL
while the current "standard" pattern altitude seems to be 1000 feet AGL.
Most airports use one or the other for their pattern altitude. At a strange
airport you may easily find yourself proudly using the wrong one, or, if you
are useing the correct one someone else may be using the other. Always
check both carefully.

Also check the pattern on BOTH sides of the runway. Someone may think there
is a right/left hand pattern in effect and be using the incorrect one.
When winds are light and variable virtually any runway may be in use.

I remember one time starting my flare at the Flying W Ranch in New Jersey
and looking up and seeing a Cessna 310 doing the exact same thing at the
other end of the runway! It got MY attention! :-)

Also be extremely careful if there are intersecting runways. Even if they
only intersect or almost intersect at one end. I remember one very
interesting landing at Philadelphia Internation back in the sixties. I was
in a Piper Apache landing to the west. I was number two after a Boeing 720
landing to the south. Those runways kinda intersect at the east end of the
EW runway and the north end of the NS runway. The big Boeing went by and
touched down off to my left. I was on short final over the river when I
suddenly found my self rolling at a very rapid rate well past ninety
degrees. I didn't see anyway possible that I could stop the roll and roll
back before I landed so I pushed and cranked in the direction of the roll.
I completed the roll and came wings level and then the mains touched down.
I really hadn't intended an aileron roll on short final, but that's what
happened. My charter pax were two airline pilots flying in for their ride.
They were a bit pale when they climbed out of that Peachy Apache! Of
course I was the cool calm and collected high time charter jock. I thanked
them for the business, closed the door, and proceeded to get takeoff
clearance back the way I came in, and took off to the east. As I got out
over the river the door popped open. The cool, calm and collected high time
charter jock hadn't remembered to latch the darn door. I can say from
experience that if you are solo in a Piper Apache and the door pops open you
are NOT going to get it closed and latched unless you land. There was no
way I was going to turn around and go back into PHL! I flew on down to
Bridgeton, NJ and landed there and closed and latched the door. Then I flew
on home to MIV. Another day in the life of a charter jock! :-)

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

"Highflyer" wrote in message
...
I remember one time starting my flare at the Flying W Ranch in New Jersey
and looking up and seeing a Cessna 310 doing the exact same thing at the
other end of the runway! It got MY attention! :-)

That was probably Bill Whitesell!
:-)
Dudley

Highflyer schrieb:

I've had thee close encounters since 1963. The last was nearly 10
years ago when landing.

The most dangerous near misses are those which you'll never know.

Stefan

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 10:01:50 +0200, Stefan
wrote:

Highflyer schrieb:

I've had thee close encounters since 1963. The last was nearly 10
years ago when landing.

The most dangerous near misses are those which you'll never know.

Near miss. No, I've never had one that almost missed me.
The closest was about a foot with the top of the tail of a Comanche
under my seat. Although that vertical stabilizer had to be closer to
that to the wheels on the old Piper Colt. He was flying the express
way low and I do mean low. He had to gain altitude for the overpass
and there we were on final for 36.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Stefan
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com