Question for the real pilots

On 2007-04-12 15:28:32 -0700, C Booth said:

Maybe I should
file a NASA report just to be safe, what do you think?

File the NASA report. These reports are very valuable in identifying
problem areas like this.

This sort of thing happens altogether too often at Las Vegas.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

On Apr 12, 10:18 pm, Jose wrote:
Sometimes Class Bravo clearance is implied, but it's always best if
you get it explicitly.

When, under VFR, is a class Bravo clearance implied, such that this
implied clearance can be relied on at an enforcement hearing?

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

A Bravo clearance is NEVER implied VFR, it must always be stated.
However, this incident if it were to go to an enforcement hearing (and
I would be very very very surprised if it did) would generate a lot of
"unhappy conversation" on all sides. The Controller errored as well.

Lisa Nowak stands a better chance of being acquited then this has of
going to an enforcement situation in my view

Robert

On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:45:43 -0700, TheSmokingGnu
wrote in
:


Erk. Class B clearance must always, always, always, always (always) be
given explicitly with "... cleared to enter the Class Bravo
airspace...". Any other usage isn't an implied clearance.


Not that I disagree with you, but are you able to cite FAA regulations
or orders that support your allegation?

On 12 Apr 2007 21:18:23 -0700, "Luke Skywalker"
wrote in
. com:

The Controller errored as well.

Can you cite the particular part(s) of FAAO 7110.65 that the
controller violated?
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...a/7110.65R.pdf

On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 03:18:52 GMT, Jose
wrote in :

Sometimes Class Bravo clearance is implied, but it's always best if
you get it explicitly.

When, under VFR, is a class Bravo clearance implied, such that this
implied clearance can be relied on at an enforcement hearing?


Perhaps 'implied' wasn't the best choice of words to use in this
situation.

Without knowing all the circumstances (such as LOAs, the position of
the aircraft at various times, etc.) surrounding this particular
incident, it's probably not possible to assert a definitive answer to
your question, and I don't pretend to be knowledgeable about _all_ the
regulations that address this issue.

I was hoping that I wouldn't have to do the work of searching FAAO
7110.65, but here's what I found:


http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...a/7110.65R.pdf
2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS
a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach
control tower on an individual aircraft basis before
issuing a clearance which would require flight within
a surface area for which the tower has responsibility
unless otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.
REFERENCE-
FAAO 7210.3, Letters of Agreement, Para 4-3-1.
14 CFR Section 91.127, Operating on or in the Vicinity of an
Airport in
Class E Airspace.
P/CG Term- Surface Area.
b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower
for transit authorization when you are providing radar
traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter
another facility’s airspace.
NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own
authorization through each area when in contact with a
radar facility.
c. Transfer communications to the appropriate
facility, if required, prior to operation within a surface
area for which the tower has responsibility.
REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Radio Communications Transfer, Para 2-1-17.
FAAO 7110.65, Surface Area Restrictions, Para 3-1-11.
FAAO 7110.65, Application, Para 7-6-1.
14 CFR Section 91.129, Operations in Class D Airspace.




Section 9. Class B Service Area- Terminal

7-9-2. VFR AIRCRAFT IN CLASS B AIRSPACE
a. VFR aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance to
operate in Class B airspace.
REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Operational Requests, Para 2-1-18.
FAAO 7110.65, Airspace Classes, Para 2-4-22.
PHRASEOLOGY-
CLEARED THROUGH/TO ENTER/OUT OF BRAVO
AIRSPACE,



2-1-18. OPERATIONAL REQUESTS
Respond to a request from another controller, a pilot
or vehicle operator by one of the following verbal
means:
a. Restate the request in complete or abbreviated
terms followed by the word “APPROVED.” The
phraseology “APPROVED AS REQUESTED” may
be substituted in lieu of a lengthy readback.
PHRASEOLOGY-
(Requested operation) APPROVED.
or
APPROVED AS REQUESTED.
b. State restrictions followed by the word
“APPROVED.”
PHRASEOLOGY-
(Restriction and/or additional instructions, requested
operation) APPROVED.
c. State the word “UNABLE” and, time permitting,
a reason.
PHRASEOLOGY-
UNABLE (requested operation).
and when necessary,
(reason and/or additional instructions.)
d. State the words “STAND BY.”
NOTE-
“STAND BY” is not an approval or denial. The controller
acknowledges the request and will respond at a later time.
REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Traffic Advisories, Para 2-1-21.
FAAO 7110.65, Route or Altitude Amendments, Para 4-2-5.
FAAO 7110.65, Methods, Para 7-9-3.



5-4-5. TRANSFERRING CONTROLLER
HANDOFF
The transferring controller shall:
a. Complete a radar handoff prior to an aircraft’s
entering the airspace delegated to the receiving
controller.
REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Coordinate Use of Airspace, Para 2-1-14.
FAAO 7110.65, Control Transfer, Para 2-1-15.
FAAO 7110.65, Receiving Controller Handoff, Para 5-4-6.
b. Verbally obtain the receiving controller’s
approval prior to making any changes to an aircraft’s
flight path, altitude, or data block information while
the handoff is being initiated or after acceptance,
unless otherwise specified by a LOA or a facility
directive.
NOTE-
Those en route facilities using host software that provides
capability for passing interim altitude shall include the
specific operations and procedures for use of this
procedure in a LOA between the appropriate facilities.
c. Ensure that, prior to transferring communications:
1. Potential violations of adjacent airspace and
potential conflicts between aircraft in their own area
of jurisdiction are resolved.
2. Necessary coordination has been accomplished
with all controllers through whose area of
jurisdiction the aircraft will pass prior to entering the
receiving controller’s area of jurisdiction, except
when such coordination is the receiving controller’s
responsibility as stated in para 5-4-6, Receiving
Controller Handoff, and unless otherwise specified
by a LOA or a facility directive.
3. Restrictions issued to ensure separation are
passed to the receiving controller.
d. After transferring communications, continue to
comply with the requirements of subparas c1 and 2.
e. Comply with restrictions issued by the receiving
controller unless otherwise coordinated.
f. Comply with the provisions of para 2-1-17,
Radio Communications Transfer, subparas a and b.
To the extent possible, transfer communications
when the transfer of radar identification has been
accepted.
NOTE-
Before the ARTS/STARS “modify/quick look” function is
used to transfer radar identification, a facility directive
which specifies communication transfer points is required.
g. Advise the receiving controller of pertinent
information not contained in the data block or flight
progress strip unless covered in a LOA or facility
directive. Pertinent information includes:
1. Assigned heading.
2. Air speed restrictions.
3. Altitude information issued.
4. Observed track or deviation from the last
route clearance.
5. The beacon code if different from that
normally used or previously coordinated.
6. Any other pertinent information.
h. Ensure that the data block is associated with the
appropriate target.
i. Initiate verbal coordination to verify the position
of primary or nondiscrete targets when using the
automated handoff functions except for intrafacility
handoffs using single-sensor systems or multisensor
systems operating in a mosaic RDP mode.
j. Initiate verbal coordination before transferring
control of a track when “CST”, “FAIL”, “NONE”,
“NB”, “NX”, “IF”, or “NT” is displayed in the data
block.
k. Advise the receiving controller that radar
monitoring is required when the aircraft is on a direct
route initiated by ATC that exceeds usable NAVAID
distances.
l. Issue restrictions to the receiving controller
which are necessary to maintain separation from
other aircraft within your area of jurisdiction before
releasing control of the aircraft.
m. Consider the target being transferred as
identified on the receiving controller’s display when
the receiving controller acknowledges receipt
verbally or has accepted an automated handoff.
n. Accomplish the necessary coordination with
any intervening controllers whose area of jurisdiction
is affected by the receiving controller’s delay in the
climb or the descent of an aircraft through the vertical
limits of your area of jurisdiction when the receiving
controller advises you of that delay before accepting
the transfer of radar identification unless otherwise
specified by a LOA or a facility directive.
5-4-6. RECEIVING CONTROLLER HANDOFF
The receiving controller shall:
a. Ensure that the target position corresponds with
the position given by the transferring controller or
that there is an appropriate association between an
automated data block and the target being transferred
before accepting a handoff.
REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Coordinate Use of Airspace, Para 2-1-14.
FAAO 7110.65, Control Transfer, Para 2-1-15.
FAAO 7110.65, Transferring Controller Handoff, Para 5-4-5.
b. Issue restrictions that are needed for the aircraft
to enter your sector safely before accepting the
handoff.
c. Comply with restrictions issued by the initiating
controller unless otherwise coordinated.
d. Before you issue control instructions directly to
an aircraft that is within another controller’s area of
jurisdiction that will change that aircraft’s heading,
route, speed, altitude, or beacon code, ensure that
coordination has been accomplished with each of the
controllers listed below whose area of jurisdiction is
affected by those instructions unless otherwise
specified by a LOA or a facility directive:
NOTE-
Those en route facilities using host software that provides
capability for passing interim altitude shall include the
specific operations and procedures for use of this
procedure in a LOA between the appropriate facilities.
1. The controller within whose area of jurisdiction
the control instructions will be issued.
2. Any intervening controller(s) through whose
area of jurisdiction the aircraft will pass.
e. After accepting a handoff from another
controller, confirm the identity of primary target by
advising the aircraft of its position, and of a beacon
target by observing a code change, an “ident” reply,
or a “standby” squawk unless one of these was used
during handoff. These provisions do not apply at
those towers and GCAs which have been delegated
the responsibility for providing radar separation
within designated areas by the parent approach
control facility and the aircraft identification is
assured by sequencing or positioning prior to the
handoff.
REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Approach Separation Responsibility, Para 5-9-5.
f. When using appropriate equipment, consider a
discrete beacon target’s identity to be confirmed
when:
1. The data block associated with the target
being handed off indicates the computer assigned
discrete beacon code is being received, or
2. You observe the deletion of a discrete code
that was displayed in the data block, or
NOTE-
When the aircraft generated discrete beacon code does not
match the computer assigned beacon code, the code
generated will be displayed in the data block. When the
aircraft changes to the assigned discrete code, the code
disappears from the data block. In this instance, the
observance of code removal from the data block satisfies
confirmation requirements.
3. You observe the numeric display of a discrete
code that an aircraft has been instructed to squawk or
reports squawking.
g. Initiate verbal coordination prior to accepting
control of a track when “CST”, “NAT”, “NT”,
“NONE”, “NB”, “NX”, “OLD”, “OL”, “AMB”,
“AM”, or “TU” is displayed in the data block.
1. When an automated interfacility handoff
action is initiated and “AMB” or “AM” is displayed
in the full data block, advise the other facility that a
disparity exists between the position declared by their ...



5-4-10. PREARRANGED COORDINATION
Prearranged coordination allowing aircraft under
your control to enter another controller’s area of
jurisdiction may only be approved provided
procedures are established and published in a facility
directive/LOA in accordance with FAAO 7210.3,
para 3-7-7, Prearranged Coordination.
NOTE-
Under no circumstances may one controller permit an
aircraft to enter another’s airspace without proper
coordination. Coordination can be accomplished by
several means; i.e., radar handoff, automated information
transfer, verbal, point-out, and by prearranged
coordination procedures identified in a facility directive
that clearly describe the correct application. Airspace
boundaries should not be permitted to become barriers to
the efficient movement of traffic. In addition, complete
coordination, awareness of traffic flow, and understanding
of each position’s responsibility concerning penetration of
another’s airspace cannot be overemphasized.
REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Coordinate Use of Airspace, Para 2-1-14.
FAAO 7110.65, Transfer of Radar Identification, Methods, Para
5-4-3.
FAAO 7110.65, Automated Information Transfer (AIT), Para 5-4-8.
FAAO 7210.3, Prearranged Coordination, Para 3-7-7.



I'll let you do the work of interpreting the above and continuing the
search for pertinent sections....

Where's Mr. McNicoll when you need him? :-)

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:45:43 -0700, TheSmokingGnu
wrote in
:

Erk. Class B clearance must always, always, always, always (always) be
given explicitly with "... cleared to enter the Class Bravo
airspace...". Any other usage isn't an implied clearance.


Not that I disagree with you, but are you able to cite FAA regulations
or orders that support your allegation?

He can't. There's no rule. The controller should issue VFR clerarances
that way however. Obviously IFR clearances aren't going to sound like
that at all.

The pilot is definitely responsible for the bust, but the controller
rules also prohibit the controller from vectoring aircraft into
airspace without coordinating the transition. Of course it fails
all the time.

C Booth wrote:
I was flying out of VGT last month (North Las Vegas) heading back to
SLC in an Aztec after a great round of Golf. After getting VFR
clearance from ground to MMM (Mormon Mesa Vortac) which is ENE of
Vegas. Cleared for takeoff and given a heading from the tower, then
handed off to Nellis aproach. The controler gives me heading and asks
intention and sounds like she has marbles in her mouth. I ask her to
repeat instructions and finally get her instructions read back. I am
squawking a descreat code and continuing to follow instructions from
Nellis getting vectored out of the way of inbound F-18's and even a
B-2. All of a sudden out of the blue she calls me and asks me if I
have class B clearance. I gulp hard a couple of times, in all the
vectors and hand offs I realize that I have not received clearance...I
fess up and say noooo. She says "Well, you're right smack in the
middle of Class B airspace". That's it, no instructions. I say,
"Well..., can I get clearance now, or do you want me to go somewhere?"
She gives me the clearance. Whew, first time that has ever happened
to me. I am usually very careful not to bust airspace. Needless to
say I was embarassed but in other instances where I have been vectored
into Class B, such as in this instance, I have always been given the
clearance. I know that it is my responsibility to get the clearance
before flying into the airspace, but if they are giving vectors to
penetrate the airspace, are they at fault as well? Maybe I should
file a NASA report just to be safe, what do you think?

Just thought an aviation based thread might be good for the group.

Cbooth
SEL MEL Instrument


NASA form for sure.

On 4/13/2007 12:40:10 AM, Nomen Nescio wrote:

Well, you're not the first person that's had that happen.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Why so cryptic? You already are as anonymous around here as a leaf in the
rain forest.

--
Peter

Larry Dighera writes:

Not that I disagree with you, but are you able to cite FAA regulations
or orders that support your allegation?

FAR 91.131(a)(1) (necessity of clearance) and 7710.65R 7-9-2(a) (approved
phraseology).

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Ron Natalie writes:

He can't. There's no rule.

Yes, there is. A specific clearance is required, and a specific phraseology
is used.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.