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Experience with Flarm "Stealth" and Competition modes



 
 
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  #31  
Old May 28th 13, 08:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Firth[_4_]
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Posts: 57
Default Experience with Flarm

At 10:13 28 May 2013, Evan Ludeman wrote:
On Tuesday, May 28, 2013 12:52:20 AM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

Also the original poster claimed that he reduced flarm alerts in

gaggles
by turning stealth mode. I am not sure how this will be possible. Flarm
collision alerts are not suppressed by stealth mode.

Read it again. Competition mode and stealth mode are two completely
different things.

T8

Evan, Iam not yet Flarm enabled but my airspace is pretty
uncrowded.

However, you seem to be behind Butterfly on audio deadband.
I sure would like to have this.

John Firth

An old no longer bold pilot.

  #32  
Old May 28th 13, 09:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tim Taylor
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Default Experience with Flarm "Stealth" and Competition modes

On May 28, 12:20*pm, Papa3 wrote:
On Tuesday, May 28, 2013 12:40:28 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 28, 2013 12:06:45 PM UTC-4, Steve Koerner wrote:


Also the climb rate which flarm shows is not compensated nor a good averager. I often see 9.9 knots when the glider is only climbing at 1-2 knots on average. Totally misleading. Flarm knows groundspeed which is usually close enough to airspeed to allow a first order TE compensation calculation. I think we should expect Flarm to get that on their To-Do list. Also, Flarm should not pass any number for climb rate until enough integration time has passed that the number has become usefully stable and meaningful (until the reading stabilizes, we should just see two dashes in the display). Now that all of the basic functions of PowerFlarm are working, this is the time to do refinement. The ability to read a meaningful climb rate for other gliders is potentially a very nice feature. When this is working right, I suspect that folks will be less likely to choose stealth mode.


So now that Flarm folks have finally provided the deliverables promised, i.e reliable collision avoidance and flight logging, both of which are/were needed, and were the selling points, they should get to work and make it a better leeching tool than it already is, which more than a few of us think we do not need.


Hopefully they will be as slow in that effort as they were on the primary product.


More work will be needed by "someone" to develop a way to get information without giving it. That would be the obvious next step in Flarm Radar wars.


The "situational awareness" argument is simply a canard to get people to buy this device in order to try to remain competitive. Collision avoidance as currently provided, is a good improvement to our safety margins. That is all we really need.


One guy's opinion.


UH


FWIW...

We have to look at this problem in chunks:

- *Data acquisition
- *Data transmission
- *Data analysis
- *Presentation

Today, FLARM has clearly done a great job on all of these with the primary focus of collision avoidance. * I get that. *We all need to applaud them for that.

However, as this thread illustrates, once the primary purpose is refined, we're naturally asking "so what's next"?

The key to a real Tactical Leaching Tool (TLT) is whether or not the data acquisition and transmission are controlled. * Frankly, once anyone has 5-7 data elements delivered at some relatively high refresh rate (aircraft, position, altitude and time being all that's really required), * anyone else with access to that could easily build some pretty nice tools into the current and next generation of Flight Displays. *Everything from smoothing algorithms to averaging the calculated lift from multiple targets in the same thermal to a "hot key" to highlight 5 pre-identified competitors are all on the horizon. * I don't at all buy the arguments that "it hasn't happened in Europe" or "the information isn't meaningful because of x,y, or z.." * Once real focus is put on massaging the data for a new purpose, these arguments will go away.


TLT is the best descriptor so far, thanks P3. Once the software
writers start to catch up it will be a real interesting world. John,
I respectfully disagree with your arguments for open mode during
contests. You wrote the review of the FAI rules system and why it
increases gaggling, this will do the same and will discourage anyone
taking the lead out of the gate.

From personal experience I spent 15 to 20% more time head down during
the contest at Mifflin and Parowan last year. Yes, in a video game
way it was fun to watch the screen but it does nothing to help safety
to have six to ten miles of situational awareness.

Once the software gurus catch up the information available will be
amazing. Some of the potential has been mentioned, here are my list:

1. Thermals marked ahead with strength, arrival height and ETE. It
will estimate the drift from the position drift of each glider
thermalling and winds aloft.
2. Lift and sink bands while in cruise. My onboard computer will be
estimating lift and sink rates of cruising gliders, back calculating
the air mass movements from the polar and speed data of each glider.
It will be displaying lift and sink in colored bands in front of me
and if I want I can turn on the autopilot and let it follow the best
path.
3. Tracking of specific targets; at Uvalde I would set my targets such
as WR, MK, P7, A8, etc. and anytime I get a lock on them I will get
vectors to where they are. Many of us have worked hard to learn how
to slip quietly out the start gate, to maneuver behind a leech and
then slip away or to scrape them off on some rocks. There are many
pilots I enjoy flying with during a contest day because they have the
skill and personality to truly provide mutual benefit on a task, but I
don't want to provide additional tools so those that can only follow,
never lead, and can not make decisions to latch on and leech all day.

Can all this information be feed to the users so there is no
additional heads down time? Will the Bitch'n Betty be talking to us
all the time giving us information? If you think this is not already
happening talk to the open source guys working on XCSoar.

Imagine the increased penalty for being an early starter. The start
gate games will get even better than they are now.

We have access to satellite weather and artificial horizons, we chose
not to allow them in the cockpit, we can still decide what we allow
with PowerFLARM. Who will control the hardware add-ons? A nice
antenna with an big amplifier would pull the signals in even better.
You can see me at four miles but I can see you at twenty.

The PowerFLARM systems are great for fun flying, I love PowerFLARM for
local flying and flying a course with friends. We had a group of five
flying yesterday, there with FLARM and it was nice to know the B4 was
4.5 miles away and 300 feet higher.

The basic warning functions of PowerFLARM work well and in a contest
we need no further situational awareness, in fact I would argue that
it decreases safety because more time will be spent looking down at
all the neat displays.

TT






2.

  #33  
Old May 28th 13, 10:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,939
Default Experience with Flarm "Stealth" and Competition modes

Richard wrote, On 5/26/2013 1:16 PM:
On Sunday, May 26, 2013 12:24:16 PM UTC-7, Tim Taylor wrote:

The argument that Europe is not using
stealth mode is apples to oranges, we are seeing better than 10
miles (16 km) constantly with PowerFLARM. This is way more than is
needed for situational awareness and safety.


I beleive it should be on the Racing Pilot opinion questionaire 2013
and go with the majority opinion and the recommendations of the
manufacturer.

And please send your Powerflarm back to me and I will exchange for
one that operates correctly. In over 250 hours of testing I have
never seen 10 Miles. The PowerFlarm on steriods you have will go in
my glider.


It was a common experience at Ephrata over the weekend, where several of
us with Cores saw other Cores 10+ SM away. Not in all directions or
attitudes, of course, but typically when both glider had the other ahead
of them within plus/minus 60 degrees or so. Most of us had the antennas
in the nose; one pilot had them in the fin, and reported excellent
reception in all directions.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
  #34  
Old May 29th 13, 10:53 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 44
Default Experience with Flarm "Stealth" and Competition modes

Steve,

The holy grail of glider technology is the ability to read the strength of thermals at a distance. So far, accomplishing that has evaded all those who have tried. PowerFlarm offers the best hope for doing just that on a limited scale when there are other gliders in a cooperating network. If you want to view that as a leeching tool, so be it. Glider racing is inherently a cooperating process.


This holy grail has been working for decades already: Look
out and see how fast the others climb. If they're up faster than yourself,
join them.

Works for me (well, on a moderate scale proportional to my training level).

Having my eyes inside the cockpit and trying to match little dots
with associated numbers on a display with gliders out there does not help
particularly. Neither does it improve safety.


WRT Stealth mode: I reiterate, we do *not* recommend it. Neither does it
make you intrackable. What it does: It removes some information: Ground
speed, track and in particular, vertical speed. It also 'obfuscates' altitude
by adding some random numbers.

Best
--Gerhard (FLARM dev mgr)
  #35  
Old May 29th 13, 12:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Evan Ludeman[_4_]
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Posts: 484
Default Experience with Flarm "Stealth" and Competition modes

On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 5:53:34 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Steve,



The holy grail of glider technology is the ability to read the strength of thermals at a distance. So far, accomplishing that has evaded all those who have tried. PowerFlarm offers the best hope for doing just that on a limited scale when there are other gliders in a cooperating network. If you want to view that as a leeching tool, so be it. Glider racing is inherently a cooperating process.




This holy grail has been working for decades already: Look

out and see how fast the others climb. If they're up faster than yourself,

join them.



Works for me (well, on a moderate scale proportional to my training level).



Having my eyes inside the cockpit and trying to match little dots

with associated numbers on a display with gliders out there does not help

particularly. Neither does it improve safety.





WRT Stealth mode: I reiterate, we do *not* recommend it. Neither does it

make you intrackable. What it does: It removes some information: Ground

speed, track and in particular, vertical speed. It also 'obfuscates' altitude

by adding some random numbers.



Best

--Gerhard (FLARM dev mgr)


Thanks for clearing this up Gerhard. I was under the impression that the position reporting (or lack of) was a bit more symmetric in stealth mode... and I would strongly encourage you to make it so.

It may seem silly in Europe, but US racing puts a premium on independent action. (Speaking to Steve' point) The day that Pez D. Spencer can plot thermal strength and location via flarm data at 6 miles or more is not one I personally look forward to. That's no more "holy grail" to competition soaring than "Guitar Hero" is to performance music.

The hope here is that "lone wolf" US competitors will see enough value in stealth mode used *voluntarily* that we won't see either a drop in racing participation or a push for mandatory stealth mode.

Best,

Evan Ludeman / T8
  #36  
Old May 29th 13, 02:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike the Strike
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Posts: 952
Default Experience with Flarm "Stealth" and Competition modes

Everyone seems to assume that less able pilots will want to leech off of the faster ones. Not so! I am not one of the fastest cross-country pilots, but have long abandoned any idea of leeching - I find it easier to locate my own thermals, thank you very much!

There are, however, a few pilots whose presence in the same thermal make me uncomfortable - I'll be using Flarm to steer clear of them!

Mike
  #37  
Old May 29th 13, 05:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Richard[_9_]
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Posts: 551
Default Experience with Flarm "Stealth" and Competition modes

On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 4:11:35 AM UTC-7, Evan Ludeman wrote:
On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 5:53:34 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Steve,








The holy grail of glider technology is the ability to read the strength of thermals at a distance. So far, accomplishing that has evaded all those who have tried. PowerFlarm offers the best hope for doing just that on a limited scale when there are other gliders in a cooperating network. If you want to view that as a leeching tool, so be it. Glider racing is inherently a cooperating process.








This holy grail has been working for decades already: Look




out and see how fast the others climb. If they're up faster than yourself,




join them.








Works for me (well, on a moderate scale proportional to my training level).








Having my eyes inside the cockpit and trying to match little dots




with associated numbers on a display with gliders out there does not help




particularly. Neither does it improve safety.












WRT Stealth mode: I reiterate, we do *not* recommend it. Neither does it




make you intrackable. What it does: It removes some information: Ground




speed, track and in particular, vertical speed. It also 'obfuscates' altitude




by adding some random numbers.








Best




--Gerhard (FLARM dev mgr)




Thanks for clearing this up Gerhard. I was under the impression that the position reporting (or lack of) was a bit more symmetric in stealth mode.... and I would strongly encourage you to make it so.



It may seem silly in Europe, but US racing puts a premium on independent action. (Speaking to Steve' point) The day that Pez D. Spencer can plot thermal strength and location via flarm data at 6 miles or more is not one I personally look forward to. That's no more "holy grail" to competition soaring than "Guitar Hero" is to performance music.



The hope here is that "lone wolf" US competitors will see enough value in stealth mode used *voluntarily* that we won't see either a drop in racing participation or a push for mandatory stealth mode.



Best,



Evan Ludeman / T8


I would have to say that some racing pilot feel as Evan does but not all nor do I believe a majority.

So:

I have said this before put it on the pilot opinion poll as see what shakes out.

Richard.
  #38  
Old May 29th 13, 05:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Experience with Flarm "Stealth" and Competition modes

On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 12:09:09 PM UTC-4, Richard wrote:
On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 4:11:35 AM UTC-7, Evan Ludeman wrote: On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 5:53:34 AM UTC-4, wrote: Steve, The holy grail of glider technology is the ability to read the strength of thermals at a distance. So far, accomplishing that has evaded all those who have tried. PowerFlarm offers the best hope for doing just that on a limited scale when there are other gliders in a cooperating network. If you want to view that as a leeching tool, so be it. Glider racing is inherently a cooperating process. This holy grail has been working for decades already: Look out and see how fast the others climb. If they're up faster than yourself, join them. Works for me (well, on a moderate scale proportional to my training level). Having my eyes inside the cockpit and trying to match little dots with associated numbers on a display with gliders out there does not help particularly. Neither does it improve safety. WRT Stealth mode: I reiterate, we do *not* recommend it. Neither does it make you intrackable. What it does: It removes some information: Ground speed, track and in particular, vertical speed. It also 'obfuscates' altitude by adding some random numbers. Best --Gerhard (FLARM dev mgr) Thanks for clearing this up Gerhard. I was under the impression that the position reporting (or lack of) was a bit more symmetric in stealth mode.... and I would strongly encourage you to make it so. It may seem silly in Europe, but US racing puts a premium on independent action. (Speaking to Steve' point) The day that Pez D. Spencer can plot thermal strength and location via flarm data at 6 miles or more is not one I personally look forward to. That's no more "holy grail" to competition soaring than "Guitar Hero" is to performance music. The hope here is that "lone wolf" US competitors will see enough value in stealth mode used *voluntarily* that we won't see either a drop in racing participation or a push for mandatory stealth mode. Best, Evan Ludeman / T8 I would have to say that some racing pilot feel as Evan does but not all nor do I believe a majority. So: I have said this before put it on the pilot opinion poll as see what shakes out. Richard.


The RC took to position of strongly encouraging the voluntary implementation of Flarm in the contest community. The sporting considerations like those mentioned in this thread were well known and anticipated. It was agreed that at some point after Flarm is well accepted, that these issues could, and would be raised. Part of the logic in this was that real world experience is a much better guide to decision making than speculation.
It is technically possible and practical, occording to Flarm representatives, to create a version that removes the avilablity of much tactical information,such as climb rates, and the ability to export such information to external devices, while preserving the anti collision aspects. It is also possible to do so such that this can be locked in for the period of a contest such that no monitoring other than a one time check would be required. This was described during our exchages as "US Stealth".
There will need to be a considerable amount of discussion on this and very well written, balanced poll questions for the RC to determine the path forward for US competition.
UH - Former RC member and Chair
  #39  
Old May 30th 13, 06:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Morgan[_2_]
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Default Experience with Flarm "Stealth" and Competition modes

I am flying with a portable unit and the range is 2-4nm and usually the 4nm in a direction I'm not looking.

I find the data useful for situational awareness, but far less useful for tactical decision making during a contest. Primarily because I typically have seen a circling glider well before they are visible on Flarm. If they were ten miles out, that would seem to be essentially useless information for me. That's 6-7 minutes at a pretty fast pace before I'm going to reach where they were. Assuming I saw them on flarm climbing at 10knots. Before I could reach them, they'd be topped out and gone and I'm left hoping that I can find that same thermal either recycling or miraculously still working..

Additionally, we are all leeches to some degree. If you spot a glider out in front of you or near your course line and they appear to be climbing well (or are confirmed by Flarm) I don't think any competitive pilot is going to avoid their thermal to be a sport and find their own lift. If they are a slower pilot you're going to probably leave them behind, a slightly faster pilot may end up marking lift for you. A much faster pilot will leave you behind.

My personal experience with Flarm in a contest is that I did not use it at all for competitor analysis. I always spotted a glider visually before getting an Alert to new traffic. If they were climbing and looked to be marking a good climb, I was heading that way based on visual cues, not Flarm cues.

I was team flying with a partner and kept it locked on him as long as he was closest. For that it was hugely valuable. When he was on my 5,6,7 position, I knew and it reduced the radio calls needed to alert each other to our position when tight and in a blind spot. For all of the other aspects of team flying, it was really a non factor as we used radio calls for more accurate info on lines and climb rate.

Non competition use I find that the buddy flying aspect is really only valuable for giving a higher degree of precision to what you can see with the eyeball. You're on glide with a friend, separated by 1/2 a mile. You know they are above or below you. You can see that change faster than inspect the Flarm. The Flarm just tells you that they are 150ft and now 160ft higher. It's interesting, but I just don't see it as more useful than what you get by looking outside.

Morgan
  #40  
Old May 30th 13, 08:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
FLARM
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Default Experience with Flarm "Stealth" and Competition modes

Short explanation again of how the 'Stealth' mode works:
Please also see: http://www.flarm.com/support/Flarm_Competitions.pdf

'Stealth' mode shows other aircraft (but never their climb rate, track or speed) if they fulfill one of the requirements below:
- generate an Alert
- are within 100m horizontal and 50m vertical
- are within 2000m horizontal and 300m vertical and +-45 degrees of the direction of travel of my aircraft (which means you should see them well anyway)

If none of these conditions is met, no data about that aircraft is displayed or sent over the serial port.

'Stealth' mode applies only to other aircraft which have stealth mode enabled, unless I enable my own stealth mode after which it applies to *all* other aircraft.
There are timeouts to prevent fast toggeling of 'Stealth' mode by evildoers.

Some comments:
1) Don't confuse 'Competition' and 'Stealth' mode
2) Yes, 'Stealth mode' is a horrible contraption and should not be used unless the alternative is pilots unplugging their FLARM
3) Transponders and especially ADS-B make the whole leeching discussion pretty pointless?!
4a) Unless you tie us all up and do some repeated waterboarding, we will not modify/change/extend/customize this feature. It is what it is.
4b) Can we get back to more relevant topics?
 




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