R22 owners please help with AD 2004-06-52

For those of you unaware the FAA has issued an emergency AD
(2004-06-52) on March 18, 2004 that requires any R22 blade older than
10 years may no longer be used. The basis for the AD is questionable.
Little if any documented research was done to verify that the age of
the blade has any effect on what caused these failures. From my own
research it appears the AD and the failure problem are disjoint and
the AD will not solve the problem...but it will cost R22 owners a
fortune to replace blades older than 10 years. Please read the
material below and help change this overly severe AD. If there is a
problem it should be solved out in the open where all owners can voice
their opinions instead of behind closed doors.
The website below documents the abuse of the R22 by some mustering
operators in Australia. The crashes that resulted from this abuse
(main rotor blade failure) were used as the basis (at least in
part…50%) for the US AD. After reading this website and the CASA and
ATSB websites you will see that what's been going on in Australia has
been on the FAA and Robinsons radar for years. This AD is far in
access of any kind of reasonable response to these crashes considering
we here in the US have never had a blade failure and are not mustering
in these conditions. For instance: The documentation says that many
Australian mustering operators average 4000 to 6000 hours between
overhauls! That's double the normal life! The ships are run 8 to 12
hours a day…every day and in very hot tropical climates and the ships
appear to be subjected to a higher load spectrum then what they were
designed for.

Please take the time to research this for yourself. Then write your
congressman and let him/her know you want this AD modified! I don't
know about you but I don't have a spare $15,000, $21,000 or $28,000 as
the case may be.

http://wave.prohosting.com/tcamiga/australiapage1.htm

OK. Then what's the MTBUR in hours on the blades? Or are you just
suggesting an unlimited retirement life? What has your "research" shown?

I talked to an A&P about this and he said that its normally 2200 hours
or 12 years whichever comes first. Now the FAA wants to make it 2200
hours or 10 years and only for the blades with certain serial numbers.
Most of the ones he services never get past 5 years before he has to
change them anyway because of the hours.

Dennis.

"Bob" wrote:

OK. Then what's the MTBUR in hours on the blades? Or are you just
suggesting an unlimited retirement life? What has your "research" shown?



Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

That's not accurate. The current standard for the R22 dash 2 blades is
2200 hours whatever the age. The year limit is only in the Robinson
service manual and not the type certification and therefore is not
applicable. Your blades are good for 2200 hours regardless of age.
Many owners (including me) have bought used blades with hours left so
that we wouldn't have to buy the very expensive new ones. I'd never
use 2200 hours anyway. I just spent 5000 bucks on a set of blades
after Robinson representatives told me that it was O.K. to buy them
and a good deal. That was November 2003. Then, a couple months later
the AD comes out making them worthless. At the place I hanger my ship
and take lessons they have to buy 2 new sets of blades for nearly
$60,000 because the blades they currently have are over 10 years old.
One set still has 600 hours left. Talk about a shafting! This AD might
put a lot of training outfits out of business.

There never has been a crash from blade failure in the US and my
research found that for the crashes that I can verify the age (that's
all but one crash) and the same crashes the FAA is using as the basis
for the AD (three in Australia with the last one being the one they
cite in the AD and the one in Israel on the AD) happened on blades
that were younger then 10 (the last crash in Australia the blades were
9 years old and the crash before that the blades were only 4 years old
but rumored to have over 5000 hours on them and I haven't heard yet
about the Israeli crash and when I talked to the FAA they couldn't
give me a firm age either) years.

These blades failed from abuse and would have failed no matter what
the rules were. This is a huge shafting of R22 owners and a windfall
for RHC. Please read the Australian story on this link. It will open
your eyes. Then write your congressman and ask for an investigation.

http://wave.prohosting.com/tcamiga/australiapage1.htm


wrote in message ...
I talked to an A&P about this and he said that its normally 2200 hours
or 12 years whichever comes first. Now the FAA wants to make it 2200
hours or 10 years and only for the blades with certain serial numbers.
Most of the ones he services never get past 5 years before he has to
change them anyway because of the hours.

Dennis.

"Bob" wrote:

OK. Then what's the MTBUR in hours on the blades? Or are you just
suggesting an unlimited retirement life? What has your "research" shown?



Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

"rotortrash" wrote in message
m...
That's not accurate. The current standard for the R22 dash 2 blades is
2200 hours whatever the age. The year limit is only in the Robinson
service manual and not the type certification and therefore is not
applicable. Your blades are good for 2200 hours regardless of age.
Many owners (including me) have bought used blades with hours left so
that we wouldn't have to buy the very expensive new ones. I'd never
use 2200 hours anyway. I just spent 5000 bucks on a set of blades
after Robinson representatives told me that it was O.K. to buy them
and a good deal. That was November 2003. Then, a couple months later
the AD comes out making them worthless. At the place I hanger my ship
and take lessons they have to buy 2 new sets of blades for nearly
$60,000 because the blades they currently have are over 10 years old.
One set still has 600 hours left. Talk about a shafting! This AD might
put a lot of training outfits out of business.

There never has been a crash from blade failure in the US and my
research found that for the crashes that I can verify the age (that's
all but one crash) and the same crashes the FAA is using as the basis
for the AD (three in Australia with the last one being the one they
cite in the AD and the one in Israel on the AD) happened on blades
that were younger then 10 (the last crash in Australia the blades were
9 years old and the crash before that the blades were only 4 years old
but rumored to have over 5000 hours on them and I haven't heard yet
about the Israeli crash and when I talked to the FAA they couldn't
give me a firm age either) years.

These blades failed from abuse and would have failed no matter what
the rules were. This is a huge shafting of R22 owners and a windfall
for RHC. Please read the Australian story on this link. It will open
your eyes. Then write your congressman and ask for an investigation.

http://wave.prohosting.com/tcamiga/australiapage1.htm


wrote in message
...
I talked to an A&P about this and he said that its normally 2200 hours
or 12 years whichever comes first. Now the FAA wants to make it 2200
hours or 10 years and only for the blades with certain serial numbers.
Most of the ones he services never get past 5 years before he has to
change them anyway because of the hours.

Dennis.

"Bob" wrote:

OK. Then what's the MTBUR in hours on the blades? Or are you just
suggesting an unlimited retirement life? What has your "research"
shown?



Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

I don't believe the 2200hrs whatever the age thing.......

There are many composite materials/glues used in the production of rotor
blades. After a certain age these materials 'break down' and the complex
structure becomes 'unstable'. They then no longer perform as in the design
criteria.

If someone says replace at 2200hrs or 10 years, then do it - or risk serious
damage to your aircraft, yourself or your passengers.

Clive

Clive

On 23 Apr 2004 11:56:47 -0700, (rotortrash)
wrote:

This is a huge shafting of R22 owners and a windfall
for RHC. Please read the Australian story on this link. It will open
your eyes. Then write your congressman and ask for an investigation.


I cannot believe that Robinson would gleefully profit from this AD.
Frank doesn't seem to be in the business of driving his customers away
from flying his aircraft from what I've seen, no matter that Robinson
will make some dough on the new blades. They seem to be doing quite well
not being able to build enough R44s..

But then, I'm not an owner... I just see what appears to be a decent man
running a great company (as helicopter companies go) that makes a
semi-affordable product (as helicopters go).

Dave Blevins

On 23 Apr 2004 11:56:47 -0700, (rotortrash)
wrote:

This is a huge shafting of R22 owners and a windfall
for RHC. Please read the Australian story on this link. It will open
your eyes. Then write your congressman and ask for an investigation.

If you don't like the selected corrective action of this AD you have
choices. Here are a few:

1. Do the AD if your aircraft falls into the ones targeted
2. Don't fly, hold off and see if the AD changes – this could be never
to a few weeks.
3. Call the number at the bottom of the AD and voice your case why you
feel the action required of the AD is wrong and how they might better
deal with the problem being addressed. In most cases, if not all, you
better have some real data, evidence that your way is better in order
for it to be considered at all. Believe it or not, if you have the
data/evidence they will listen.

The problem has nothing to do with composite like someone suggested.
It's water and corrosion. Here is the statement from the AD:
"Investigation revealed that corrosion from water penetration
initiated a fatigue crack in a blade."

I would suggest the holding off, if you can and see what happens.
They may come up with a change.

Eric D

Actually, I think it's more of a control thing for Frank. Obviously
he's wanted the 10 year limit from the start…it's in the service
manual and I here grumblings from RHC of worry over the glue that
holds the blades together. Whatever the case RHC will make a killing
in blades sales. I suggest you read up on the subject before making
judgment. I spent a great deal of time researching this. The AD has no
basis in truth and is unnecessarily punishing R22 owners. Please read
the Australian story. It's very interesting and exposes some of what's
been going on. Also, the ATSB and CASA have the accident reports.
Somewhere buried in all this the ATSB has stated that the blades
failed from OVER RUNNING the hours not the age. Robinson has insisted
repeatedly that the blades are good for 2200 hours. There's no good
explanation for this AD. I have no problem with the first part of the
AD, which is balancing the blades and doing some inspections but to
throw away perfectly good blades is not acceptable. And they offer no
other means of compliance. This AD needs to be changed. Write your
congressman and let him/her know you want an investigation.


wrote in message . ..
On 23 Apr 2004 11:56:47 -0700, (rotortrash)
wrote:

This is a huge shafting of R22 owners and a windfall
for RHC. Please read the Australian story on this link. It will open
your eyes. Then write your congressman and ask for an investigation.


I cannot believe that Robinson would gleefully profit from this AD.
Frank doesn't seem to be in the business of driving his customers away
from flying his aircraft from what I've seen, no matter that Robinson
will make some dough on the new blades. They seem to be doing quite well
not being able to build enough R44s..

But then, I'm not an owner... I just see what appears to be a decent man
running a great company (as helicopter companies go) that makes a
semi-affordable product (as helicopters go).

Dave Blevins

(rotortrash) wrote:

2200 hours whatever the age. The year limit is only in the Robinson
service manual and not the type certification and therefore is not
applicable. Your blades are good for 2200 hours regardless of age.

Thanks for posting this. This is good to know.

and take lessons they have to buy 2 new sets of blades for nearly
$60,000 because the blades they currently have are over 10 years old.

2 sets = $60K
1 set = $30K
I didn't realize they were that expensive. Aren't they normally
changed as part of the 2200 hour megservice? The whole service is
only about $90K I thought.

One set still has 600 hours left. Talk about a shafting! This AD might
put a lot of training outfits out of business.

Where exactly is that hangar - what airport, city?

but rumored to have over 5000 hours on them and I haven't heard yet

I also heard rumors about using it to trim hedges and low RPM.

Dennis H.


Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

Your right Dennis the blades are included in the overhaul. Seperately
they cost $28,500 and you may recieve some credit (normally about 2400
I think) but that's it. RHC is giving some incentives but they are
very iffy. You might get a break or they may not give it to you. Any
way you slice it blades are expensive. Please read the Australian
website and write your congressman. I can't do this alone. The AD is
not based on the truth. If I were the FAA and they had to prove to me
the necessity for this AD it would have NO CHANCE AT ALL! Conversly,
if I wanted to say, come up with an alternative method for changing
oil on a plane, the FAA would MAKE ME PROVE beyond any doubt that my
method worked and worked every time. They do not require the same
rigor of themselves. For this AD they didn't provide one shred of
concrete engineering evidence. When I asked where's the research the
non-response I got was "how many more people have to die". No kidding
that's what the FAA said to me. Can you believe that? How ridiculous.
There's something very wrong going on here.

wrote in message ...
(rotortrash) wrote:

2200 hours whatever the age. The year limit is only in the Robinson
service manual and not the type certification and therefore is not
applicable. Your blades are good for 2200 hours regardless of age.

Thanks for posting this. This is good to know.

and take lessons they have to buy 2 new sets of blades for nearly
$60,000 because the blades they currently have are over 10 years old.

2 sets = $60K
1 set = $30K
I didn't realize they were that expensive. Aren't they normally
changed as part of the 2200 hour megservice? The whole service is
only about $90K I thought.

One set still has 600 hours left. Talk about a shafting! This AD might
put a lot of training outfits out of business.

Where exactly is that hangar - what airport, city?

but rumored to have over 5000 hours on them and I haven't heard yet

I also heard rumors about using it to trim hedges and low RPM.

Dennis H.


Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm