Cloud Flying - Experimental

I don't think that you want to try this in a 25m+ glider.

"David Starer" DavidAtStarerDotCoDotUk wrote in message
...
The issue isn't spinning. In fact, holding the glider in a spin may well
be
the best way of exiting a cloud after losing control. Even if the glider
isn't cleared for spinning there's a good chance you won't have a problem
if
you carry out a proper spin recovery once you are well clear of the cloud.

The real danger is the combination of over-speeding and simultaneously
pulling excessive g in an attempt to recover control of the glider while
there is no pitch reference.

David Starer


wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 5, 4:22 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
Hmm, Mine says "Spins prohibited". However, with the fixed stab, it's a
very stable, spin resistent platform so I don't see why not. Most of
the
airplanes I flew IMC were "Spin prohibited" too - never spun one IMC.

Bill Daniels

"Tim Taylor" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Feb 5, 12:57 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
My Nimbus 2C does. It's expressly stated in the POH and the
certification
(Experimentat EX&R)

Of course, getting the proper logbook signoffs for a "gyro panel" is
somethng else.

Bill Daniels

But the real question is would you want to fly a Nimbus 2 in those
conditions? Mine was a handful in a spin, not sure I would want to
try it in IMC.

Tim

yea the experimental exhibition and racing is different as it has a
POH which allows cloud flying. With amatuer built I must somehow
prove that it is safe to take the glider into clouds. Finding the
standards to prove it against has proven difficult, but I got my copy
of the Basic Glider Criteria handbook and it is looking promising.

Funny how pure glider pilots seem to think that any encounter with
clouds must result in an immediate loss of control. Properly
instrumented and most importantly, properly trained, it really is no
problem. Twins, Airliners, and even many single engine planes that
are not certified for spins fly in IMC every day with no problems.

Most gliders are certified for cloud flying in the
UK, but then we have much more cloud than most countries.
I used to own a Nimbus 2 (all flying tailplane version)
and cloud climbed it on a number of occasions without
difficulty, using an artificial horizon and a turn
and slip indicator. However I had been trained to blind
fly in light aircraft first. Don't do it without getting
some training first! Also don't circle within 10 knots
of the stall speed in cloud.

Derek Copeland

At 20:42 05 February 2007, Tim Taylor wrote:
On Feb 5, 12:57 pm, 'Bill Daniels' wrote:
My Nimbus 2C does. It's expressly stated in the POH
and the certification
(Experimentat EX&R)

Of course, getting the proper logbook signoffs for
a 'gyro panel' is
somethng else.

Bill Daniels

But the real question is would you want to fly a Nimbus
2 in those
conditions? Mine was a handful in a spin, not sure
I would want to
try it in IMC.

Tim

Tony,
I think we'd all agree that with sensible
speed control and suitable instruments, then inadvertent
spinning is not very likely or even particularly dangerous.
However, before going into that cloud I'd think twice
about other things - other gliders doing the same thing,
other power traffic flying IFR, and the possible violence
of the turbulence. Using a nice little isolated summer
CU or descending through a thin high layer is one kind
of situation, entering a large CuNim or extensive stratus
near the deck would be quite another. The FAA's opinion
in a day-VFR-only Experimental might also influence
your decisions.

Good luck,

Ian






At 13:42 06 February 2007, Derek Copeland wrote:
Most gliders are certified for cloud flying in the
UK, but then we have much more cloud than most countries.
I used to own a Nimbus 2 (all flying tailplane version)
and cloud climbed it on a number of occasions without
difficulty, using an artificial horizon and a turn
and slip indicator. However I had been trained to blind
fly in light aircraft first. Don't do it without getting
some training first! Also don't circle within 10 knots
of the stall speed in cloud.

Derek Copeland

At 20:42 05 February 2007, Tim Taylor wrote:
On Feb 5, 12:57 pm, 'Bill Daniels' wrote:
My Nimbus 2C does. It's expressly stated in the POH
and the certification
(Experimentat EX&R)

Of course, getting the proper logbook signoffs for
a 'gyro panel' is
somethng else.

Bill Daniels

But the real question is would you want to fly a Nimbus
2 in those
conditions? Mine was a handful in a spin, not sure
I would want to
try it in IMC.

Tim

It's hard to have an informed discussion between instrument rated pilots and
non-instrument rated pilots since the difference in training is huge.
Getting an instrument rating is probably the hardest rating to get. I've
been thold that the ATP is easier. I'm not dissing non-instrument rated
pilots, just pointing out that there's a LOT of very specialized training
involved in getting an instrument ticket.

Most people taking instrument training have thought to themselves, "This is
too hard - humans just aren't supposed to be able to do this". Somehow,
most persevere and get their ratings. Eventually, instrument attitude
flying is learned to the point it feels as nautral as blue sky VMC.
Actually, I know pilots who feel very uncomfortable flying visually.
(Instrument pilot sits in glider and asks, "Where the hell is the attitude
indicator?" Glider pilot replies, "We use the big one in the sky")

The point is that flight under IMC can be done safely by a well trained
pilot. It's not the equipment, it's the pilot that makes the difference.
Almost all accidents under IMC are pilots flying perfectly good aircraft
into the ground. They even have a name for it - CFIT (Controled Flight Into
Terrain) Aircraft and the installed instruments have little to do with it
as long as the pilot knows how to use what he has - and knows his own
limitations.

Bill Daniels


"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:GlSxh.4319$_d4.3848@trndny05...
wrote:

Funny how pure glider pilots

"Glider only" ratings, you mean? Usually, "pure" means no motor in the
glider.

seem to think that any encounter with
clouds must result in an immediate loss of control. Properly
instrumented and most importantly, properly trained,

Kind of begs the question, doesn't? "You won't have problems if you do
everything right".

it really is no
problem.

Turbulence, icing, lightning, hypoxia, other gliders and airplanes - no
problem?

Twins, Airliners, and even many single engine planes that
are not certified for spins fly in IMC every day with no problems.

How much thermalling near stall do they do ;) ? And isn't flight into IMC
where lots of those single engine planes have the most problems?

I'm looking forward to Shawn's presentation at the convention. I've read
many of the stories from the older Sailplane and Gliding magazines about
cloud flight back before GPS, and it sounded like a quite an adventure. I
particularly enjoyed the ones that had sentences like this: "As I exited
the cloud at 14,000', I looked down to see nothing but water...".

Usually meant the English Channel. Not a happy place in a 30:1 glider with
iced up wings.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

In Britain - where cloud flying is common - you radio your position
and intentions on a set frequency before entering a cloud. (You're
also required to be wearing a parachute.)

As an aside older British gliders were required to have speed-limiting
airbrakes, so if it all went pear-shaped you could open the airbrakes
and eventually fall out the bottom of the cloud at a reasonable
airspeed. My understanding is that more modern gliders have airbrakes
that only limit the speed in a 45deg dive.


Dan

On Feb 6, 10:42 am, Ian Cant
wrote:
Tony,
I think we'd all agree that with sensible
speed control and suitable instruments, then inadvertent
spinning is not very likely or even particularly dangerous.
However, before going into that cloud I'd think twice
about other things - other gliders doing the same thing,
other power traffic flying IFR, and the possible violence
of the turbulence. Using a nice little isolated summer
CU or descending through a thin high layer is one kind
of situation, entering a large CuNim or extensive stratus
near the deck would be quite another. The FAA's opinion
in a day-VFR-only Experimental might also influence
your decisions.

With an IFR clearance from ATC, the likelihood of encountering other
traffic inside the Cu is very small. The only other gliders I know of
that fly in cloud, legally or not, are either out west or in florida.
Using nice summer Cu's to practically double my thermalling height is
the reason I am pursuing this. I see diamond distance easily
attainable for the Cherokee with this capability. Not all of can be
super pilots like Jim Hard. Day VFR only is not really the FAA's set
in stone opinion on experimentals. There are quite a few
experimentals that are approved for night and IFR flying if properly
instrumented. I just trained a friend for his instrument rating in
his RV-7A in fact. No worries on the wingspan, 25 meters is over
twice what ive got. I believe it was Gordon Baxter, writer for Flying
Magazine, who said after he got his instrument rating that he decided
"Instrument flying was an unnatural act, probably punishable by god"
As Bill said, every instrument student feels the same way at some
point.

wrote:


You have to remember that Eric is to soaring what the little old lady
driving in the short 405themovie is when you are replying to him

http://www.405themovie.com/Images/Ph...l/52Co0025.JPG
http://www.405themovie.com/Images/Ph...ull/Sc0021.JPG

Let the flame wars begin LOL

Nonsense! I would never give anyone the finger, no matter how richly
they deserved it.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Of all the odd topics that come across this newsgroup this one made me
wonder why it's even being discussed??

Simply put, it's illegal. Have a nice day. Why argue amongst ourselves about
something that the FAA specifically states as illegal?
Being one of those types that has spent time flying in the system and
enduring instrument training, I have to say that for the most part, it is
boring as all get-out. We file a flight plan, get picked up, get assigned a
heading and altitude, get told pretty much every move we can make, get
handed off to approach, again vectored for an ILS in most cases and shoot an
approach that most times results in pretty straight forward stuff like
breaking out of the clouds above the MDA or DH and then landing...bank
angles are pretty much always standard rate...very seldom has anything
exciting really occurred while in actual IMC conditions for me at
least...and in general the only things that scare the heck out of you are
when a controller says something to you like..." Aerostar 36 Juliet, you
have unknown traffic 5 miles 11 o'clock, altitude uncertain, fly heading 320
degrees immediately for avoidance"

Now THAT..can be exciting. and scare the crap out of you...So for those of
us in the U.S., I hope we just let the argument die and remember that you
may be jeopardizing someone elses life and safety far more than your own if
you elect to enter IMC conditions illegally, in a glider that may or may not
skin paint on radar for the controllers trying to protect folks in the
system...


Steve.

"Steve Hill" wrote in message
...
Of all the odd topics that come across this newsgroup this one made me
wonder why it's even being discussed??

Simply put, it's illegal. Have a nice day. Why argue amongst ourselves
about
something that the FAA specifically states as illegal?


Got a specific FAR to back up that statement?

Bill Daniels

On Feb 6, 4:43 pm, Steve Hill
wrote:
Of all the odd topics that come across this newsgroup this one made me
wonder why it's even being discussed??

Simply put, it's illegal. Have a nice day. Why argue amongst ourselves about
something that the FAA specifically states as illegal?


Steve, cloud flying in a glider is just as illegal as cloud flying in
any aircraft. If you have the equipment, training, rating, and
clearance (where needed, which nowadays is just about anywhere you
would want to do it) it is perfectly legal and safe.

It's just not common in the US mainly because it's not allowed during
contests.

And please don't confuse a glider using a Cu to climb with a
powerplane on an IFR flight - totally different objectives!

I would love to be able to climb up into a Cu and pop out the side -
legally. But I'm not in the situation to get an intrument rating or
the instruments in my glider - that I would have to pull out for every
contest I wanted to go to.

With the advances in electronics, the possibility that my PDA could
become a nice EADI might be enough to change my mind.

It's funny, how the Brits, with horrible airspace restrictions, seem
to manage to let gliders enjoy cloud flying, and we in the US don't,
for the most part.

Probably due to early and excessive exposure to 2-33s....

Kirk
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